It's a hard grind, or why are some razors easy to hone?

drmoss_ca

Is there a Doctor in the house ?
Those of us who hone know perfectly well that some razors are easier than others, with a wide range such that some razors just need to be waved in the general direction of any old hone and they get sharp, while others can take you days of sweat and tears as you labour over multiple hones and pray to the razor gods to release you from bondage.

I expect that different issues come into play at various points in that range. I'd expect that softer vintage Sheffield steel will make a razor easier to hone, and over-hardened HRC66 steel will take a lot longer. And perhaps not just hardness, but toughness and other metallurgical qualities.
Then there are the difficulties caused by odd designs like a massive smile. Geometry comes into it rather obviously for the very difficult to impossible razors. But if we ignore the extremes of material science, design and geometry, we are dealing with 90% of razors that sit somewhere in the middle.

I'm wondering if small errors in geometry - really small - make the differences among most razors? When you grind by eye, there are limits to the tolerances you can achieve. I'm not a razor grinder, but I know what has to be achieved, and it looks something like this:

(Assuming you have hardened and then tempered the blade blank without inducing any warping)
1. Constant width of spine from one shoulder to the shoulder on the other side, and each shoulder must be perfectly flat in plan view.
2. Constant distance from one shoulder of the spine to the edge, and precisely the same constant distance on the other side.
3. A perfectly straight edge, in elevation, is required to allow the above.
4. The edge must be perfectly centered, in plan view, between the shoulders of the spine.
5. Even with all the above true, the razor must have no side to side curve along its length.

That's an awful lot to ask, and it obviously comes down to acceptable tolerances. Let's say you are an experienced razor grinder, and you have ground thousands of razors eight hours a day, five days a week for decades. Nearly all the razors you turn out will be serviceable, but there will be inevitable variation. A few thou here and there that might account for the difference between a razor being easy or hard to hone. Is it the case that only egregiously bad grinding makes a razor incapable of being honed, and that the stones simply remove a little more metal here and there to cover up the sins of the tired grinder?

Think of this - if you buy a pair of razors for a travel set. Same make, model and bought at the same time. One always gets sharper than the other, no? Or you buy a seven day set, and you find one or two get beautiful edges but there is only frustration in making the rest catch up to them. Everything about them is the same, save for tiny variations in the grinding process.

I'd love to hear from razor makers on this topic. Am I barking up the right tree (or just barking mad?) How do you try to get the geometry right - eyes, micrometers, jigs?
 

RMenas

Member
With my very little experience (and I am definitely not a razor maker), I believe that straight razors can resemble electric guitars (or maybe other musical instruments but I only play guitar). They are manufactured with a standardized method (usually in an automated production line) but the little differences in tolerances of various parts as well as the wood quality can result in different experiences for players. Of course the electric parts affect a lot the final tone, but if you play, for example, two Fender Strats with exactly same setup and wood, you can experience different results. The craft of creating them makes them unique in the end.

I think the same more or less applies to straight razors, each one can have a character. I suppose metal cannοt always be super consistent to predefined standards. Also, honing is a very personal experience so I guess the small differences can be much more evident or intense for someone. And maybe razor makers want to let this be part of the experience...
 

drmoss_ca

Is there a Doctor in the house ?
My thinking is that razors are not ground in an automated or standardized way, and the human touch is in there somewhere. The metal from which a batch of razors is made is far likelier to be homogeneous than the grinding in the hands of either a single worker, or a whole bunch of them for one of the larger Solingen concerns. I can well understand if a razor maker is reluctant to chime in; no doubt they prefer us to believe their products are perfect. But experience says there are differences, and it seems reasonable to attribute them to the grind. Just trying to understand a couple of decades of observation.
 
Given that most SRs are hand made and larger companies focus on mass production, of course errors will creep in. Thiers Issard had frequent geometry errors some years ago, so the complaints go. Some use tape on spine to help even things out or go for the hard honing to get the planes flat between spine and edge apex. The “experts” emphasize rolling X strokes to hone the edge just where it needs it, applying pressure just where needed, or other such techniques.

Me, I’ve used tape for unevenness, but more often just hone planes to flat between spine and apex. Some complain such method takes off too much metal or leaves an uneven bevel. Ones I’ve honed the uneven wear is hardly noticeable. Each razor should be judged on its own condition.

I’ve got a pre-1891 Wade & Butcher 5/8 in superb condition with a bow and a twist, albeit slight, but there. Honed it using rolling X. Turned out great

My general rule of thumb has been start with the least invasive method then progress as needed.
 
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RMenas

Member
...
Me, I’ve used tape for unevenness, but more often just hone planes to flat between spine and apex. Some complain such method takes off too much metal or leaves an uneven bevel. Ones I’ve honed the uneven wear is hardly noticeable. Each razor should be judged on its own condition.

I’ve got a pre-1891 Wade & Butcher 5/8 in superb condition with a bow and a twist, albeit slight, but there. Honed it using rolling X. Turned out great

My general rule of thumb has been start with the least invasive method then progress as needed.
How can you fix geometry/unevenness of the blade by using tape? Isn't tape applied to entire spine so any existing uneveness will continue after honing? Do you use tape on a part of the spine? Is there some video or something to see in order to get the general idea?
 

Slawman

New Old Member
My thinking is that razors are not ground in an automated or standardized way, and the human touch is in there somewhere. The metal from which a batch of razors is made is far likelier to be homogeneous than the grinding in the hands of either a single worker, or a whole bunch of them for one of the larger Solingen concerns. I can well understand if a razor maker is reluctant to chime in; no doubt they prefer us to believe their products are perfect. But experience says there are differences, and it seems reasonable to attribute them to the grind. Just trying to understand a couple of decades of observation.
Doc., many straights are made in automated factories. But the best are hand made.
 

Pun1sh3R

One Batch, Two Batch, Penny, And Dime.
Interesting topic.

From my small brain, It comes down to all of the aforementioned and geometry. More importantly would be the consistent width distance of the spine at the hone line and consistent distance between hone line and edge.

I think data collection is in order to define the observations with. Set up a spreadsheet, key reference points and valued. Document the future honed razors parameters and ease of Honing value. Maybe there is a proof to the theorem. A design of experiments.

In today's age of Sharks with Laser beams on their heads, we have the ability to measure and have a machine make the "Perfect" blade.

But why does this not exist? Why is the Hand Ground, garage/shop razors so sought after?

I am intrigued by the Razor Smith. Mr. Williams book was very insightful. There is a lot that goes into this, but able to be done simplistically.

Frank
 

Pun1sh3R

One Batch, Two Batch, Penny, And Dime.
This is from my nerd days.

Design of experiments (DOE) is defined as a branch of applied statistics that deals with planning, conducting, analyzing, and interpreting controlled tests to evaluate the factors that control the value of a parameter or group of parameters.

So in this case, the Design of the test would be "Ease or Difficulty of Honing" (Value). We could make this binary, easy or hard, defining the parameters for each determination.

The next portion would be the documentation of the characteristics (Factors); Hardness, Material, Grind style (Wedge to Extra Hollow), Blade height, Thickness, etc.

We would use a "Standardized Process" (Controlled Tests), honing each razor along the same progression of hones. Each razor would then be documented into the matrix of this test.

Once a fair database/sample has been completed, the data can be analyzed to determine any corresponding attributes that affect the outcome (Statistical Analysis & Evaluation). Results can then be graphed three-dimensionally to show the factors that make a Razor Easier or Harder to hone.

The reverse of this would then be the design of the perfect Razor; What design elements would need to be in place at what value? Maybe apply a theory of constraints.

It would be interesting to see what components of razor design factually affect the Theory or Hypothesis of "Why are some razors harder to hone than others?" Is there actually a "Factor" or "Factors" that defines this?

The idea of this process is to take qualitative observations and turn them into quantitative information. Please refer to the first line of this post ;)

Frank
 
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Slawman

New Old Member
Another few things to think of is just how good is the steel and how well the Hardening and tempering job was done. Back before the say 1920's there was not as much or as good science to making steel as their was later.

Slawman
 

Salamander

Well-known member
Had a hollow ground Salamander once that no one could get to my liking. I even sent to a friend after two attempts.
 
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