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Thread: Thiers Issard microchipping

  1. #1
    Senior Member Kristian's Avatar
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    Default Thiers Issard microchipping

    Hello guys.

    I consider myself to be an experienced and skill full honer. Been honing for years now.

    Resently I bought a TI 69 5/8 razor on the bay. It had a fine condition thou closer examination shoved signs of machine buffering and polishing. I think this is a vital part of the problem.

    It took some time setting the edge. There seemed to be a dent in the Center of the edge, left by to much pressure from the buffering process.

    Actually the blade had an uneven hollow grind, with suggested that some kind of grinding wheel had been in use.

    I set the edge using Naniwa SS 1k, proceeding to 3k, 8k and then finished it on a coticule.

    The edge didn't shave arms hairs 5 mm above the skin, but I stropped it anyway. Some blades with hard steel behave the same way. So I thought OK.

    After a light stropping the blade worked and took armhair allover the edge.

    Shaving test 1 day. Horrible. Pulling and not shaving.

    Examination with 22x loop shoved chipping in the edge.

    I thought that I made some kind of mistake honing it, so I tried again from the start.

    I changed to my Escher from 8k, since it seems to perform better with hard steel.

    Shaving test 2. Again horrible. Same problem. Again the loop showed some chipping.

    I then tried one more time, checking each step closely with the loop.

    Perfect edge. From 8K I finished on my favourite coticule, with slow controlled movement. Again perfect edge. Light stropping. Testing armhairs 5 mm above the skin. Hairs popping allover thou the feeling wasn't as good as my other razors.

    Shaving test 3. Horribly again. Pulling and not shaving after just a few strokes.

    Examination showed microchipping on the entire edge.

    Question.
    Does anybody think this blade can be saved?

    Is there a way to restore the edge?

    I put it in this forum, because it seemed to be the best place.

    Yours kindly
    Kristian
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  2. #2
    At this point in time... gssixgun's Avatar
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    So many things come to mind

    1. TI razors are sometimes a bit finicky about micro chipping but normally they are the newest C135 steel, it isn't a big deal you just have to pay attention

    2. Over heating can cause good steel to act that way

    3. There is an over abundance of ignorant, inept, clueless, rank amateurs passing themselves off as "Restore Experts" all over Facebook and E-bay.. They are practicing with razors and then selling their mistakes so consider yourself warned

    4. The only way to tell is to kill the edge and try from the beginning a couple of times and see if you find good steel, myself I would put 3 layer of tape on there stick it to the 1k hone and do circle with pressure and see what happens. if you get a fast burr or the edge simply falls apart on the hone you have heat damage


    Good Luck and let us know what you find

  3. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to gssixgun For This Useful Post:

    Chevhead (03-26-2015), JTmke (03-26-2015), Substance (03-26-2015)

  4. #3
    Senior Member Kristian's Avatar
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    Ok thanks. I'll try that. And keep you posted.
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    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    Unfortunately, I have seen that inept sort of grinding on TIs many times, along with warped spines and uneven bevels. I usually take some steel of the spine by honing normally, then polish the lines on the shoulder of the spine out. Then two layers of tape. The result is usually some micro-chipping. Adding another layer (you are up to 3 layers now) and going back to last finishing hone (or a finer one) for 10 passes or so brings a micro bevel up, usually with no micro-chipping. Always a PITA to hone them, IMHO.

    Even some of the older ones were a problem - I remember a very long thread on this subject on the now defunct Artisan Shaving forum. Before the harder steel was in use, if I recall correctly. Some people had taken pictures of the edge direct from the dealer - each person found a micro bevel. No wonder it was a bit of a chore honing then when you did not know that (a) the spine was elevated on the finishing hone, and (b) they had then put a micro bevel on it.

    You have checked that there is not a barely perceptible frown to the blade? I have seen that many times, too, with TI.

    If you and Glen are right and some sort of grinding wheel has been used by an idiot third party, and the blade has overheated, then I reckon you will never cure it.

    Regards,
    Neil
    Last edited by Neil Miller; 03-26-2015 at 08:16 PM.

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    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    [QUOTE=gssixgun;1477725]So many things come to mind



    3. There is an over abundance of ignorant, inept, clueless, rank amateurs passing themselves off as "Restore Experts" all over Facebook and E-bay.. They are practicing with razors and then selling their mistakes so consider yourself warned

    Great post Glen,Give me a buffer,give me the Buffing compounds,Give me a Dremel,I can make your blade look like brand new.
    If I burn it up you will never know until you try to get a good edge on it
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    Forum mogwai thebigspendur's Avatar
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    If the basic grind of the razor was messed up I would think that needs to be addressed first.
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    Every day without fail one should consider himself as dead-Tsunetomo

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    The original Skolor and Gentileman. gugi's Avatar
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    Based on the manufacturer stamp this is an old production razor.

    You are saying that the edge crumbles during shaving and that likely means poor steel. You should calculate the bevel angle to make sure it is within the norms.

    If the bevel angle is fine most likely there is nothing that can be done with the razor. It doesn't matter how even or uneven the grinding is the edge is not affected by the steel on the rest of the blade. As long as you can work around potential grinding issues and put a good edge on the razor it should shave, failing to do so means that either the steel is bad or the bevel angle is bad.

    The later is trivial to check and relatively simple to work around, the first is unfixable (well you can try honing out say 1/16" of the blade in case the steel is better there but that's the only thing you can do at this point as the blade is already way too thin for another heat treatment cycle).
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    The Electrochemist PhatMan's Avatar
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    Kristian,

    +1 on GSSixgun's suggestion of 'killing' the edge. Take the edge off the razor on the side of the Nainwa 1k. Tape razor, and set bevel on 1k. Do a Thumb Nail Test (TNT) and see if the edge is smooth on the nail - if not re-kill edge and repeat the bevel set until the edge is smooth on the nail for the 1k Naniwa. Take it up the stones and see if all is less bad.

    I have an old Sheffield that took four (4) edge kills to cut off the 'bad' steel. After that it was fine

    Have fun

    Best regards

    Russ
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    Senior Member Kristian's Avatar
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    Well this is proving to be one of the most challenging razors I've honed yet. I used Gssixguns advice and reset the bevel. I then set it again with 1k. This time using 3 layers of tape.

    The edge seemed fine, so I progressed all the way to coticule. However in the last stage the edge feel apart and microchipping appeared.

    New reset, same procedure. A little better, but still signs of edge decay.

    3. Reset same procedure. This time I went really slow, with the coticule. Very light pressure only finishing strokes.

    The edge didn't pop armhair 5 mm of the skin, but I tried to strop it anyway, since the edge seemed ok. I used a strop with the red dovo paste. It's pretty fast. Only 8 laps.

    Then 15 on leather. It pops hair fine now.

    There micro spikes a couple of places along the edge, but it still looks fine.

    I'll try to shave it tomorrow. And hope the best. If not I'll try one more time before it goes to scrap.

    One of the advice was to hone the spine. I think that could be a solution. The honing angle is corrupt, but 3 layers of tape helps. Thou the angle is a bit out of line on the one side. Ideal the one side should have 4 layers of tape. Don't know is that could work.

    I'll send a post after test shaving tomorrow. Thanks for the help guys.

  11. #10
    The original Skolor and Gentileman. gugi's Avatar
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    It is taking you a lot of time and work because you're shooting in the dark instead of systematically diagnosing the problem and then trying to correct what is wrong.

    If the spine is too thin making the bevel angle too small you should start by measuring it and then adding the necessary layers of tape to bring the bevel angle to 17-20 degree range. Each layer of tape (standard 7mil) increases the angle by about 1 degree so if you know where you're at and your target you can add the correct amount of tape.

    If it's not the angle but the steel it's highly unlikely that simply dulling the razor will get you to a better steel. You need to grind off a meaningful amount from the blade width but the chances are bad anyways. If you consider what could be the cause for it there isn't much that can make it bad only within 0.1mm along the edge which is what dulling removes.
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