Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 32
Like Tree15Likes

Thread: Side Stroke, Side Honing Revisited?

  1. #1
    Senior Member blabbermouth
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Diamond Bar, CA
    Posts
    5,042
    Thanked: 2285

    Default Side Stroke, Side Honing Revisited?

    Side Stroke, Side Honing, Vibratory or Vibration honing revisited.

    First this thread, in some ways is not new, (some of this has been discussed before here), is a bit long and may create some confusion. But this is a bit different than what has been discussed before. It is in theory an advanced technique, which is why, it is posted in Advanced Honing forum. I welcome your thoughts, do give it a try it is simple and non-destructive.

    A while back, I posted a thread, “Hone a Straight Edge or to a Straight Edge?” Where I interpted a technique that Iwasaki wrote and Jim Rion translated, in his essay on honing and described a finishing technique in, ("Honing Razors and Nihonkamisori").

    My question, is Iwasaki describing a breadknife/jointing technique or a horizontal stroke, up and down, parallel to the edge, with the spine and edge flat on the stone? At the time, I though he was describing, a jointing technique to straighten the edge. I am still not sure which technique he was describing.

    Opinions were divided, as the description could either be a jointing or side honing technique. I began researching the possibility of Iwasaki describing Side Stroke Honing or what the Japanese call, Vibration Honing, a horizontal stroke, as shown in Takeshi-San video, (Takeshi-San (at about 200 on the video
    ) linked here and in the thread.

    In watching videos of Japanese honers honing razors, and narrated in Japanese, described as Vibration or Vibitory Technique, moving the razor up and down heel to toe, a millimeter or two at the finish stone level. Here is another video of the Vibration technique.

    In the original thread, I posted a video of Alex Gilmores finishing a razor, (at about, 620
    ) with a jointing technique similar to what I envisioned, but he also discusses the possibility of Iwasaki describing what Alex calls “Parallel Honing Strokes”. Alex’s video has some good micrographs of his process and his findings. In further searching the technique, there was a reference to the Harreson Stanley’s Side Honing Method, using a jig for tool sharpening and this is not that.

    So, recently I was finishing a razor that I had removed a shallow but wide chip, where the customer had hit a faucet. The chip was easily removed but upon stropping the edge, micro chipped where the chip damage had been.

    I re-honed the razor (8 and 12k), and was about to go to the 20k. I noticed some random deeper 12k stria, common to Super Stones, when they begin to load up. I would normally, lightly re-lap the 12k with a 4k stone and re- set an even stria, 12k bevel and a straight edge.

    Except this time I had been thinking about the Vibrating/Side Honing technique. So without lapping or cleaning the stone, I did 5 horizontal strokes with about 10mm of travel on each side, blade flat on the stone and looked at the bevels. Most of the 12k stria was removed, except some of the deeper stria, probably 75 percent of the 12k stria was removed.

    Another 10, side stroke laps at about a 45 degree angle, so the whole blade fits on the stone, all vertical stria was removed, leaving just lite horizontal stria, no vertical stria from any previous grits and a polished bevel and straight edge.

    I finished with 21 more of Alex Gilmore’s Ax laps on the 20K, (10,5,3,2,1) and 5 more finishing, Side honing, heel/toe horizontal laps, with lite pressure and 5-6 mm of motion, leaving a very nice polished bevel and straight chip free edge. I stropped 100 laps on leather and test shave the razor, very clean and crisp edge.

    So what’s the point?

    Recently in another honing thread, a new honer having an edge problem that in the end came down to deep stria from a low grit 220 stone and too much pressure. He spent a few days sorting it out, but in the end, removed all the deep stria and got the razor to shave. I though this might be a way for new guys, to easily remove deep stria and set and polish a bevel quicker and chip free.

    It is not just, the Side Honing method as Harrelson Stanley described, but more of a combination of regular stroke honing and removing the stria perpendicular to the edge, with a side honing technique, then moving to the next grit in the progression and lay down new stria and side honing that stria from the bevel and continue with each stone, all the way to the finish stone, (not just the finish stone as Iwasaki did).

    To test the theory, I took a Norton 1k, my most aggressive 1k stone and a razor that had been hand sanded and without a bevel.

    I quickly set the bevel in 21 laps, with the Ax technique, often described as half lap honing. I lightly jointed the edge on the corner of the 1K stone and re-set a sharp edge, in 11 laps, (5, 3, 2, 1 series).

    I then did 10 horizontal heel/toe vibratory/side honing laps with a bit of pressure, about 10mm of movement up and down and all the 1k vertical stria was removed. I proceeded to the 4k using the same technique on each stone, Half lap & side honing, and continued through the progression, 4,8,12 and 20k.

    The whole process took 10-15 minutes and left a very nice keen edge with no deep or random stria and a very straight edge.

    In many ways, it is like circle honing on steroids, avoiding the diagonal stria common to circle honing, and extra pressure can easily be applied to the heel or toe, if needed. Smiling edges can use a rocking motion to completely hone the entire edge smoothly.

    In essence, after establishing a set bevel, you lay down 1k stria, then remove it with side honing, then lay down the next progression stria and remove it, side honing and continuing in the progression to the finish stone. Since then, I have honed several razors using this technique and all have quickly produces keen, chip free, straight shaving edges.

    Give it a try and post your thoughts.
    Blistersteel likes this.

  • The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Euclid440 For This Useful Post:

    bluesman7 (07-19-2015), JeffR (07-19-2015), Neckbone (07-20-2015), tintin (07-19-2015)

  • #2
    Senior Member bluesman7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Denver CO
    Posts
    1,341
    Thanked: 346

    Default

    I've been finishing on a Naniwa 12k with a few V strokes with very good results. Not quite side honing but I think the same idea and benefits.

  • #3
    Senior Member tintin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    archbold ohio
    Posts
    1,289
    Thanked: 325

    Default

    looks like something else for me to try!
    tcrideshd likes this.

  • #4
    Silky Smooth
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    792
    Thanked: 154

    Default

    Interesting technique. Are the vertical stria are removed more quickly by the perpendicular/horizntal motion of the vibration method than by doing the same thing (tiny strokes) in the vertical direction? Thanks.
    de gustibus non est disputandum



  • #5
    Senior Member blabbermouth
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Diamond Bar, CA
    Posts
    5,042
    Thanked: 2285

    Default

    Yes, in about 10-15 strokes, using a 5-10 mm stroke, depending on the grit, higher grits are more easily removed so I used a shorter stroke. If use in progression, you get the benefit of the grit without the stria, so theoretically, you should get a straighter edge and much quicker.

    When you move up you have no vertical stria to remove, just some lite horizontal stria.

    I don’t know why they say to use a 1-2 mm stroke for the vibration technique, they also only use it at final finish, so regular vertical honing is doing all the stria removal.

  • The Following User Says Thank You to Euclid440 For This Useful Post:

    JeffR (07-19-2015)

  • #6
    Senior Member blabbermouth Kees's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    4,957
    Thanked: 570

    Default Bread-knifing

    Great thread Euclid.
    I cannot see the point of bread-knifing in order to get rid of the teeth left by a lower grit hone. I think you effectively remove them anyway by simply moving up the grit ladder. I made 2 drawings hoping to show my point. The metal on the right side of the red line is the metal removed by bread-knifing. After bread-knifing you have to remove the metal outside of the green lines with a higher grit hone to get a sharp edge again. Simply moving up the grit ladder gets you to the same point IMHO. With bread-knifing you risk removing more metal than you strictly need to get a keen edge. Less is more if you like.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr.

  • #7
    Senior Member blabbermouth
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Diamond Bar, CA
    Posts
    5,042
    Thanked: 2285

    Default

    So this is not Bread Knifing, the first thread covered the Jointing technique where the point was, to shape a straight edge first, then bring the bevels to meeting at the new edge. True Bread Knifing is more of a heavy edge correction to remove a chip or reshape an edge as in heel or toe correction.

    In theory it sounds like you would remove more material by Jointing, but in practice you remove less metal, because while honing the bevels you are doing 2 things at the same time, 1, shaping a straight edge and getting the bevels to meet.

    And 2, you are not removing as much metal as the diagram; it is just the ragged edge that will get removed by one or two lite jointing strokes, no matter how you do it, that same material from the chippy edge must be removed. Regular edge forward honing will remove at least, the same metal or more, because you cannot see the edge while honing, unless you inspect after each stroke, most do too many laps and remove more metal than needed trying to straighten the edge,

    With a Jointed edge, you have more control over the edge and the amount of metal removed, even though, the amount is minimal.

    The side honing technique is a quick and easy way to remove deep stria that leads to a chippy edge, early in the honing process and with each progression.

  • The Following User Says Thank You to Euclid440 For This Useful Post:

    alx (07-20-2015)

  • #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Melbourne Australia
    Posts
    159
    Thanked: 32

    Default

    Thanks for the Great post (and concise responses).

    From my perspective (as an amateur who only hones his own razors) I tend to think that Iwasaki was referring to side honing technique rather than a jointing technique, mostly because I would considered that a jointing action would run to much risk of damaging the freshly honed edge (I do concede however that these are the words of a master with a masters hands and that it is conceivable that he meant (and had skilled enough hands to practice) a jointing technique to straighten and improve the final edge).

    I feel you work here tends to support the idea that Iwasaki was referring to side honing. You mention that finishing on a particular stone with short, light(er) side strokes removes the stria. If the stria are removed from the bevel they must also be removed where they meet (and traverse) the edge. Doing side strokes on both sides of the blade gives you the same net result as a jointing stroke (with regards to reducing the ruggedness of (i.e. straightening) the edge), without the very high risk of dulling the edge that comes with jointing.

    I can think of a couple of speculative ideas why the side strokes are said to be only 1-2mm long, but I think it would mostly come down to maintaining light even pressure. Longer strokes may risk too much variation in pressure along the blade which would be adverse to the final edge.

    I had previously read the posts (including yours) on jointing and then re-setting a bevel when bevel setting and understanding the merits of doing so, with the second bevel set being done with fewer strokes, leading to a less rugged edge, thereby giving the best foundation for the rest of the progression. However, I have never done it as I fear that my hands aren’t steady enough to straighten the edge without damaging it.

    I look forward to incorporating the side stokes (as a proxy for jointing) into each stage of my honing progression in future to see what the results are.

    Thanks again for a very thought provoking post.
    Euclid440 and FAL like this.

  • The Following User Says Thank You to DrDalton For This Useful Post:

    Euclid440 (07-21-2015)

  • #9
    Shave This Hart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Pickering, Ontario
    Posts
    1,036
    Thanked: 183

    Default

    The videos I watched refer to the process as "joining". The purpose of which I believe is the removal of the initial extreme saw tooth edge left from setting the bevel, so you have a more even line of metal to proceed with.
    The side to side strokes make sense, much like hand sanding a blade, you cross your scratch patterns to more effectively remove previous grit marks.
    Euclid440 likes this.
    Than ≠ Then
    Shave like a BOSS

  • The Following User Says Thank You to Hart For This Useful Post:

    Euclid440 (07-21-2015)

  • #10
    Senior Member tintin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    archbold ohio
    Posts
    1,289
    Thanked: 325

    Default

    is the joining (holding the blade perpendicular to the hone or on the edge of the hone) done only after setting the bevel or at every grit? or does the vibration method take its place at every grit?
    And when is it done, after x strokes or in place of?

  • Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

    Tags for this Thread

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •