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Thread: Experimenting with some jointing techniques

  1. #11
    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    Jointing removes the flashing, and makes the edge straight. You can do the same thing by honing but some edges will continue to flash or micro-chip.

    You will remove the same amount of metal either way, until you get to solid steel, but jointing will get you to a straight edge, then you just bring the bevels back to meeting in a few strokes.

    It also works well with hard chippy edges, like Harts and Chinese razors.

    Just a different road, and for new honers a much easier solution, where the cause is often too much pressure.
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  2. #12
    Senior Moderator JimmyHAD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian View Post
    When the original discussions about killing an edge came about. I said that it made no sense to make the edge worse before starting to set the bevel. It made as much sense as breaking your legs as your first step for training for a marathon.

    Most of the time, I feel the same way about joining or jointing an edge. It's just not necessary. The edge is formed by the meeting of the planes of the bevels. That's it. That's all the edge is. You drag the edge along the corner of a hone and the bevels no longer meet so you have to hone more to get the edges to meet again.
    +1. I am not however closed minded. I will take another stab at 'jointing' and see if my mind can be changed. What I have been doing for the past years has been working though, and unless this technique turns out to be something of great value for me, I won't 'fix' it.
    Be careful how you treat people on your way up, you may meet them again on your way back down.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euclid440 View Post
    It depends on the edge, I prefer to joint the edge, on the corner of the stone as it cut off the flash and makes a straight edge.

    I try to get as straight an edge, on a 1k as possible, rather than fight a crumbling edge on higher grit stones. So once the bevel is set, I joint it and reset the bevel on the 1k, with light laps.

    I usually lightly joint, additionally at the 8 or 12k, very lightly, then reset on the high grit stone. I also strop on a Chrome Oxide, Sailcloth canvas strop before going to the finishing stone.

    I see no point in dulling the edge on glass, once the bevels are flat the edge should come back to meeting, in just a few laps.

    As said when doing edge repair or after buffing or sanding, usually requires more edge removal to get to solid steel.
    What a great concept! I have been using glass at times thinking it was doing the same thing but now I see it is not. I have seen the sides of hones with these grooves plus I have seen other people that are not on SRP do this (razor honers, woodworkers, and knife honers) so maybe there is something to this.

    The concept makes sense to me and it has helped me at times (even with the glass) to get to a good bevel when I was struggling with chippy edges. For some reason, the chips just seemed to keep coming until I joined the edge and then got a great shave. So, at times, it has been useful.

    I am going to try killing the edge on a stone next time instead of glass.

  4. #14
    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    I only do this if, for whatever reason, I can't get an edge to shave. My preferred surface is the corner of a fine stone. The Norton 8K, a barber's hone, or an Arkie. Something that doesn't remove a lot of material, so it can be reset quickly on the 4k or a slurried natural, and honed back up to snuff. I find if the problem can't be seen at 60x the edge doesn't need much to be trued up, it's probably already %96 right just needs enough to get that extra %2-%3 bump.

    Sometimes I'll do like Euclid does at the 1K phase too, just to ensure my bevel is as right as I can get before moving onward on an ebay find or something that really needed attention. Usually after that I continue as normal, unless I find it doesn't shave and needs to be taken back to the stones. I'll try to step down in the progression and hone it out once or twice before jointing with a high grit/finishing stone.

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    Senior Member BeJay's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the replies. I've experimented with five blades now and I can see that I'm consistently getting better results on the HHT. Hard to say if they are really shaving better then without jointing, but they have all shaved very well. I'm surprised by how little it takes to bring the edge back after lightly stroking it on the corner of a hone. I'm still just using the stone after the 1K, and my fingernail for the following stones. I think it's probably The fingernail at the higher grits that's making the difference on the HHT. I may keep this in my routine as it takes very little effort and it's yielding positive results.
    B.J.

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    Member maxpamjohn1's Avatar
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    Find that this set of YouTube videos explains the process very well.
    This is the part 2 of the pair... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh8GsyWvj-8&sns=em



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    Yes, that is Alex Gilmore.

    I first started using the Jointing technique, as a result of my interpolation of Jim Rion’s translation of Kousuke Iwasaki’s, 1963, Honing Razors and Nihonkamisori.

    You also might try stropping the razor prior to the final stone, also recommended by Iwasaki, on Chromium Oxide. I use a Polyester canvas sailcloth strop, Alex uses leather, both work.

    The stropping does a similar thing, though not cutting off the flashing, it does align and polish the edge, prior to the final polish on the finish stone. And to me does make a difference in the edge.

    Alex a member here, also has many excellent videos on his website The Japan Stone.
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  • #18
    illegitimum non carborundum Utopian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeJay View Post
    Utopian. You say that most of the time it's not necessary, implying that it sometimes is necessary. In what situation would you use this technique? it's not a toothy edge that I'm trying to address. It's a malleable foil edge that just bends out of the way when it's laid on a stone. I'm sure we have all seen this under magnification. I'm hoping to address this at a level that I can't see with my 60x loupe.
    That was my attempt at diplomacy, nothing more. I do not see anything in the geometry involved in honing to merit joining or jointing ever. I don't do a lot of back-honing , so I don't tend to create foil edges. I look at every edge I hone and and I just don't see foil edges except very small fins on crappy steel. Even then, such fins are removed with honing.

    Because it has been pushed here so frequently, I have experimented with it many times. I have tried it more often when honing chippy edges, like gold dollars, and I do not find any improvement over normal proper honing.

    The straightening of an edge occurs during the normal honing process, so I see no need to attempt to preemptively straighten the edge. That is my opinion, nothing more.
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    illegitimum non carborundum Utopian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxpamjohn1 View Post
    Find that this set of YouTube videos explains the process very well.
    This is the part 2 of the pair...

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Here we go again.

    This video, if you want to use it as a way to demonstrate the effect of joining or jointing, is just fine. However, I consider it to be an extremely incorrect interpretation of Jim Rion's translation of Iwasaki's treatise. The FOLLOWING is from the last time I disagreed with this interpretation and the reasons still stand.


    I side-tracked that thread because I saw no point in allowing the continued propagation of what I consider to be a completely wrong interpretation. I will continue to maintain that this interpretation cannot be correct, for the same two reasons.

    1. Iwasaki described this as the last step of honing. He did not say it was to prepare for the final step. He said that it was the final step. I do not believe that jointing the edge is the last honing step.

    2. Iwasaki stated that this final honing step was to be done for 10-15 minutes. I do not believe that jointing the edge should, by any stretch of the imagination, be done for 10-15 minutes.

    Alex's video stated that after a single back and forth stroke, the edge was dulled. It is obvious that this stroke should not be the last honing step and should not be done for 10 minutes, so it also is obvious that this is not what Iwasaki was describing.

  • #20
    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    Yea, we get it.

    You don’t like Jointing and you have a different interpretation of Jim Rion’s translation of Iwasaki’s writing.

    Does not mean, that it does not work. I don’t like peas, but don’t think that, no-one should eat them…

    Alex is a very accomplished honer, Jnat stone expert and dealer. He is constantly pushing the envelope, searching out new methods, reviving old ones, and has posted many, useful YouTube videos and postings.

    And as with the post you listed, has nothing to do with the original post, but thank you for your input…
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