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Thread: Iwasaki - breadknifing - Jim Rion - translation correction

  1. #21
    Senior Moderator JimmyHAD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randydance062449 View Post
    BTW, Utopian was kind enough to give me a call and chat about this, thanks Ron
    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian View Post
    It's quite rare for me to have the opportunity to tell you why you are wrong!
    Not to worry Randy, I was wrong once myself, happens to the best of us ................
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    Ok, I have just re-read the Iwasaki document.

    Jim Rions correction to his interpretation/translation makes it clear that Iwasaki was not speaking of jointing/breadknifing. Here is the best version posted on his blog
    ================================================== =====
    Honing Razors and Nihonkamisori: Updated.
    Posted by Jim Rion in Fundamentals, Honing, Iwasaki, Kamisori, Straight Razors, Toishi
    I made a translation error, of course.

    On my recent visit to Iwasaki-san, I asked him about the particularly confusing section, 3.5 Edge Finishing.

    What I translated as "standing" should have been translated as "lengthwise."

    Instead of honing the razor standing, you hone it flat but pull it parallel to the edge...meaning, not forward or backward, but sideways, 1mm or 2mm.
    ================================================== ==========

    This makes it abundantly clear. the razor is laid flat on the stone just as we do with normal edge leading honing. The direction is different. Instead of edge leading ( left to right, east/west) it is
    now north/south .

    A video/graphic would be best. Can anyone find a video on YouTube that shows this? Send/post a link please.
    Thanks


    To me the issue of Iwasaki suggesting jointing is now completely discredited. It is also against what a lot of us have learned from experience/observation.


    Regarding Iwasaki's suggestion for honing time .....

    I found it interesting that he started with the assumption that the work was being done on a previously honed razor that was no longer giving a very good shave. It was not an antique store find that needed major work nor was it in need of any chip/nick removal. This made it unnecessary to recreate a bevel from scratch. He only needed to "refresh" the bevel and thus the short amount of time
    spent on the coarser stones, none of which cut very fast . Lets remember he is not using manmade artificial stones that cut much faster. so that accounts for the length of time which would be much shorter if he used the artificial stones.

    RE the 10-15 minutes final step

    That really made me raise my eyebrows in surprise. I did not remember seeing that when I read this document when it first came out. But, there it is. So why that long of a time?
    I think it is explained by several things

    1. He is using a hard, fine Japanese natural stone without any slurry. These cut so very slowly and he is making such short strokes with very light pressure ( almost none, weight of razor only) that remove very little steel .

    2. He may be honing a razor that has been heat treated properly and thus demands more time.

    3. I suspect that his previous steps did not refine the edge sufficiently and thereby required more time on the last finishing . This is what I think is most likely and I think he does this deliberately. It gives him more control over the end result.

    4. And as Onimaru55 has correctly pointed out Iwasaki had to remove the slight rounding created by the chrome oxide removing the false edge.
    Last edited by randydance062449; 01-03-2017 at 02:25 AM.
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    The Great & Powerful Oz onimaru55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randydance062449 View Post

    This makes it abundantly clear. the razor is laid flat on the stone just as we do with normal edge leading honing. The direction is different. Instead of edge leading ( left to right, east/west) it is
    now north/south . A video would be best. Can anyone find a video on YouTube that shows this?
    Action is here @ about 9.50 mins in. I do believe it is limited to straight edges like planes, chisels & wa-kamisori but it's a common technique.
    I remember watching So hone a plane blade with a similar stroke but ofc with his fingers above the edge.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFMHWpi9gdc
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    Tell you what, that guy, whoever he is, ain't lapping none of my stones ! I'll say no more about that.

    I think that demonstration beginning at the 9 minute + mark explains the 2mm movement portion of Iwasaki's text. So while he is moving fore and aft with the one motion, he is also moving sideways. A picture really is worth a thousand words, particularly a moving picture. Many thanks to Randy for bringing the corrected translation, and Oz for the video.
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    May I add that if anyone wants to discuss alternative methods or the pro & cons of jointing that they please start a separate thread.

    This thread was to discuss what Iwasaki said about jointing and the answer is .....

    NOTHING!
    Last edited by randydance062449; 01-03-2017 at 03:01 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by randydance062449 View Post
    May I add that if anyone wants to discuss alternative methods or the pro & cons of jointing that they please start a separate thread.

    This thread was to discuss what Iwasaki said about jointing and the answer is .....

    NOTHING!
    Two separate discussions as you rightly point out. I think what iwasaki said was cleared up long ago in another thread and the separate discussion of the pros and cons of jointing have been discussed at length already too.
    What a curse be a dull razor; what a prideful comfort a sharp one

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel View Post
    Two separate discussions as you rightly point out. I think what iwasaki said was cleared up long ago in another thread and the separate discussion of the pros and cons of jointing have been discussed at length already too.
    The reason this thread was created is that recently there have been a number of people promoting the use of jointing and using Iwasaki as justification and I wanted to clear that up ...again.
    Randolph Tuttle, a SRP Mentor for residents of Minnesota & western Wisconsin

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    Senior Member Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randydance062449 View Post
    The reason this thread was created is that recently there have been a number of people promoting the use of jointing and using Iwasaki as justification and I wanted to clear that up ...again.
    Your intent was clear Randy. Thank you for reopening and clearing this up...again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHAD View Post
    Tell you what, that guy, whoever he is, ain't lapping none of my stones ! I'll say no more about that.
    Why not Jimmy? He's chamfering the sides as he laps
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    Well, im sorry for my question now. I see what is being said now.
    Jerry...

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