Thread: Suggestions for honing razors prone to microchipping?

I've had enough now that I need a solution.

So far my solution has been 200 circles on the escher with slurry.

I need some better ideas.

mostly this seems to be a stainless problem, but I just had it with a Japanese razor.
Not as bad, but it was happening.

I'm sure the first question will be my honing progression so I'll throw that in
DMT 600,
DMT 1200
Shapton 4K
8x2 Swaty (cuts a lot faster when it's long)
escher

I seemed to run into trouble with the Swaty, but I know it's a good stone
I don't think it was the stone, rather the steel
it wasn't overhoned, but wanted to chip like crazy

so what is the deal with microchipping?

first guess is diamond on really hard / possibly-probably untempered martensite. what is the condition?

New- it could take a little abrasion to remove an overly brittle edge metal from heat treating to get to the properly brittle stuff. Old-could be corrosion issue, (even if unseen) solution is the same.

Most of the old time smith worked by eye so they could screw up on an unfortunate day.

Stainless i have no idea or use for it

One problem I see are the two DMT's
The other suspect is the Swaty, I am assuming this is just the extra-long Barbers hone????

Two razors that come to mind when you say chippy, The overly large Friodur and some of the Wacker's

I would never even consider using a DMT on either of these you just don't need that kind of cutting power...

One of the simplest things to do with chippy razors is to get to the higher grits faster... Every razor has a honing combo, the really good ones are pretty even, some like the lower and middle grits to get sharp and chippy ones tend to like the higher grits more...probably why you are getting there doing all the Escher work...

IIWY I would be looking at an 8k stone...

Hard brittle metals need soft hones. I think slurry causes microchipping when used with brittle steel. See it this way: every little slurry particle that slips underneath the edge exerts an additional force upwards on the cutting edge. If the metal is brittle that little particle can be enough to create a little microchip.

For my SS blades I go from the 4k Norton straight to the Escher and get excellent results. With my many years experience in metal working as a Tool and Die Maker and metallurgy I have found that when working a fine edge metal rubbing on metal causes chipping. Usual cause is the wheel, stone or lap is too hard and loaded with the metal that was removed. Stainless steel is a gummy material and loads hones quickly. Your Swatty is a very hard stone. Even my 8k Norton detracts from the edge on my SS blades.

Keep your hones clear of metal removed, mostly the Norton 4k and go straight to the Escher w/o slurry after the 4k.

The DMT will not breakdown when it gets loaded w/ metal so I would avoid that one also. I have a soft 1200 Japanese hone I use on SS when needed.

A loaded hone will also cause chipping on carbon blades.

With SS blades, less strokes possible is best.

Get the blade to cut hairs on the lowest grit hone you ues. All other hones are just polishing the bevel and refining the edge.

Good luck.

And a different stroke maybe.
Jimmy wrote a review about the video fom Howard Schechter and Harrelson Stanley performing an almost horizontal stroke and one of the effects of that stroke is helping to avoid microchipping.

I've had two razors last week that chipped and the fine hones alone did not do the trick. When I was almost done, I had a new chip in the edge.

One other approach is to use 3 layers of tape on the spine. This increases the angle and results in a thicker/stronger edge.

If you measure the blade, what is the blade width divided by the spine thickness? Is the number 4 or more? If so then seriously consider 3 layers of tape.

I do agree with staying away from diamond hones. They are harsh on an edge.

Just my humble opinion,

As far as hones loading up, I would think that hitting an 8k or whatever with lapping plate as often as necessary would solve that ? FWIW, Shapton makes the 12k pro (available at Japan Woodworker). The FAQ on the Shapton USA website mentions that the 12k is meant for stainless blades and it does seem to be soft as a slurry is quickly created by the blade as you hone. I've had good results with it.

Also FWIW, I have left well enough alone with a small chip that couldn't be seen with the naked eye but only with 30x in a S30V blade among a few others. Rather than reset the bevel and start honing that super tough steel all over again I stropped and shaved. Couldn't feel the chip and got a good and comfortable shave. For those who don't use magnification I would bet you'd be surprised at what some of your good shaving edges might look like under 30x or better. A case of what you don't know won't hurt you.

sorry about all the red, those are all my replies
I needed to give responses to specifics inside the quotes

Other than new stone selection, I think my question has been answered.
Hard stones cause chipping.
We all know silicon carbide can be hard on edges, I even pointed that out in the classifieds when I listed that Carbo 103.
" Not good for stainless or super hard chippy stuff"
thanks for the replies guys (and gals )

Originally Posted by gssixgun

One problem I see are the two DMT's
The other suspect is the Swaty, I am assuming this is just the extra-long Barbers hone????
YES, gives good results on almost everything (very very good) but there have been a couple...

I would never even consider using a DMT on either of these you just don't need that kind of cutting power...
I should have clarified that I didn't, started on the 4k glass.

and chippy ones tend to like the higher grits more...probably why you are getting there doing all the Escher work...
what I was thinking

IIWY I would be looking at an 8k stone...

Originally Posted by Kees

Hard brittle metals need soft hones.

do we feel that a Shapton 8K would fit this bill?
or something softer?

hmmm... maybe too many quotes?
I had to split it up I guess

Originally Posted by Joed

For my SS blades I go from the 4k Norton straight to the Escher and get excellent results.
from the 4k shapton to the escher, but same idea
Even my 8k Norton detracts from the edge on my SS blades.

Get the blade to cut hairs on the lowest grit hone you ues. All other hones are just polishing the bevel and refining the edge.

I was cutting with the escher and slurry, see next quote, you might find it helpful.

Originally Posted by 0livia

And a different stroke maybe.
Jimmy wrote a review about the video fom Howard Schechter and Harrelson Stanley performing an almost horizontal stroke and one of the effects of that stroke is helping to avoid microchipping.

I had come up with this solution myself and had been using a 25 degree angle and doing lots and lots of strokes on one side, then the other.
Japanese strokes maybe? Is that what the karate chop strokes are called?
Where is Howards video? (going to go look)