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Thread: Trying to learn my Nakayama

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    Member nikolasnjerve's Avatar
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    Default Trying to learn my Nakayama

    Having bought a Nakayama asagi maruka kamisori from a reputable vendor, I am confident that this is a great stone. My problem is that I am kind of new to honing with J- nats and this is probably the reason why my edges seem to fall apart before the slurry reaches the "broken down" stage. I hone the edge to shave able on my Shapton 4k, after this I do about 2 or 3 slurrys with the botan until the bevel is evenly white and feels a bit sticky on the TPT, then I reach for my mejiro and go about 50-60 strokes on 2-3 slurrys until the bevel is hazy white and feels very sticky on the thumb. Now I feel it's time for the tomo, I raise a slurry for about a minute until it is quite thick and has a almost yellow colour, 30 circles and about 20-30 strokes thickens the slurry, so I dilute it with a few drops of water and make some new slurry whitout removing the old,even if there is no evident colour change in the slurry.20-30 circles and same amount if strokes, and the bevel colour is where it should be according to everything I have red, so I stop refreshing the slurry and just go on honing for maybe 70-80 strokes, now the slurry is almost dry as it apparently should be at this stage, still not a significant colour change but I do not dare to go on. The razor seems quite dull before stropping, after stropping it is HHT-3/4 at some places. Under magnification it seems like strips of the edge is missing making the light reflect from where the edge seems almost square
    I know this most likely points to severe overhoning, but I cannot get the slurry to break down with less strokes, more pressure maybe, or did I buy a stone exclusively for use on Japanese style kamisori honed with great pressure. Bottom line is, I do want to use slurry trying to get the famed broken down J-nat slurry smoothness, but I havent got what it takes to use this stone yet.
    If some of you out there has any answers or could point me in the right direction I would be very happy, if not I fear this could be a long journey with a unknown end for me and my Nakayama.
    Last edited by nikolasnjerve; 04-16-2012 at 07:06 PM.
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    Customized Birnando's Avatar
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    Nikko.

    Sounds to me like you are a bit heavy on the slurry.
    Try to use less of it and keep the stone more watery.
    In my honing on my J-Nats, I'm not concerned about slurry break down much at all.
    I see the various Naguras as stages along the way.
    I want the abrasiveness they provide along the way to a shave ready razor.
    Slurry break-down with low pressure on a western razors does sound to be a rather difficult task

    The Tomo Nagura I keep even thinner/more diluted.

    Feel free to pop over to my place, and we could look at how your stone and slurry compares to the way I do it

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    I would take Birdando up on his generous offer. There is nothing like seeing and hearing the process while in the presence of someone that knows some of the ins and outs of honing. When I saw it done for the first time it changed a lot about how I honed and success was at hand.

    Take Care,
    Richard

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    Member nikolasnjerve's Avatar
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    Thank you very much for your generous offer Birnando, I'll PM you, and we can arrange something
    Looking forward to finally be able to understand someting of this Japanese mystery.

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    I used Nakayamas for my house mainaman's Avatar
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    I'd focus on proper bevel set first, then go trough progression all the way to 8k before I jump on a Jnat.
    What you are describing sounds like a wire edge, which a Jnat can't produce when used with slurry.
    I would suggest forget the Nakayama for now and learn how to get good edge from an 8k stone, then start learning how to use the Jnat after that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mainaman View Post
    I'd focus on proper bevel set first, then go trough progression all the way to 8k before I jump on a Jnat.
    What you are describing sounds like a wire edge, which a Jnat can't produce when used with slurry.
    I would suggest forget the Nakayama for now and learn how to get good edge from an 8k stone, then start learning how to use the Jnat after that.
    This is really interesting, if a wire edge will not under any circumstances develope while using slurry, I should be able to go on honing with the final tomo slurry until achieving the polished smooth edge, whitout worrying about over honing? Of course I have to make sure my bevel is as it should,coming off the 8k first, but if I can produce a bevel that shaves comfortably off the 8k, then maybe I'll try the Nakayama.
    Thank you for pointing me in the right direction
    I've been shaving of my naniwa and shapton edges for some years now, the new challenge is natural stones. I will definately look again at the bevelsetting stage, and try the Nakayama after 8k instead of 4k.

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    Senior Moderator JimmyHAD's Avatar
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    I am not experienced in honing with j-nats but, backing up what mainaman said, I was taught early on to get shave ready @ 8k before going to a higher grit be it a natural or a synthetic. Sounds like you're having fun.
    Be careful how you treat people on your way up, you may meet them again on your way back down.

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    Member nikolasnjerve's Avatar
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    I'm having a great time, just wishing the day had more hours. I'm way to stubborn for this. I try to make the stone work the way I want to, not the way it actually does. This is why I crumble edge after edge trying to make the stone do it MY way. I understand this is exactly the wrong way going about this, I'll learn, it just takes a lot of time trusting the stone more than I trust myself.

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    Senior Moderator JimmyHAD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikolasnjerve View Post
    I'm having a great time, just wishing the day had more hours. I'm way to stubborn for this. I try to make the stone work the way I want to, not the way it actually does. This is why I crumble edge after edge trying to make the stone do it MY way. I understand this is exactly the wrong way going about this, I'll learn, it just takes a lot of time trusting the stone more than I trust myself.
    One other thing occurs to me. When I was new at honing I not only went to the finisher too soon, but I used more pressure, on the finisher, than was appropriate and correct. I didn't let the stone do the cutting with the weight of the blade. At the high grit natural or synthetic stage minimal pressure is what I do now. The foundation was laid with the earlier grits and wearing out the expensive and rare finisher with unnecessary and counter productive pressure is to be avoided. I'm making the assumption that is happening by your description of crumbling edges.

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    Member nikolasnjerve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHAD View Post
    One other thing occurs to me. When I was new at honing I not only went to the finisher too soon, but I used more pressure, on the finisher, than was appropriate and correct. I didn't let the stone do the cutting with the weight of the blade. At the high grit natural or synthetic stage minimal pressure is what I do now. The foundation was laid with the earlier grits and wearing out the expensive and rare finisher with unnecessary and counter productive pressure is to be avoided. I'm making the assumption that is happening by your description of crumbling edges.
    Like everyone else IŽm only using the weight of the blade.
    I suppose a lot of different factors have to be just right to make this work. IŽll have to take a look at lessening the pressure during final polishing, more or less slurry, when to quit (preferably before my dovo test razor ends up a 2/8).
    Hopefully IŽll learn a lot from Birnando, having an hour with someone that know the ropes will be more valuable than 10 hours on my own.
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