Thread: Damascus Custom Set - need help please.

Hi guys,
I've designed a nice hefty pair of razors just a little over 8/8 (28mm to be exact) from spine to edge with a 1/4 or a 1/2 hollow. the blade portion is 85mm or 8.5 cm long. I'm commissioning a custom knife-maker to make them from damascus that he makes himself using these components: 1070, 5160, 01, Cable, Chain. He says he's done a few one-off razors before, but mostly he makes art knives, daggers and folders etc, but says he has no problem doing straight razors. But I just wanted to ask you guys that know about the technical side of razor making, what key processes/methods/standards should I ask that he uses just to be sure he's making razors and not just razor shaped knives - or is it kinda the same thing...??? Sorry if these are real silly questions..

He says he can harden to between 60 and 65 and that he will differentially temper the blades so that the spine is more durable to knocks and bumps while the edge side of the blade is harder to retain a nice edge.. does this all sound right? I haven't heard of differentially tempered razors before, how should I direct him in this regard?
He also says he will give me some special kind of wax that will seep into the damascus to protect it over time - does this ring a bell with anyone?

And finally just on my design side - how thick should the thickest part of the spine be for a razor this size? - does it matter? and also what angle should the spine be to the cutting edge? (this goes hand in hand with the previous Q I suppose..)

Thanks for any input with this, I just don't want these to be glorified knives shaped like razors - you know what I mean..I'd like to use them as my daily shavers and want to be sure I can hone them up to a nice perfect edge.

Thanks again guys.

Let us know how is turns out, I'd like to commission a SR, too, but all the makers have months and months of delay. Regarding the spine thickness, I'm guessing that best would be to make it as thick as your thickest spine on a well shaving razor. I also wonder if you could make it thicker and how the angle of the bevel will affect the shaving capability of the razor.

If you had an old Sheffield wedge to show him and give him something to go by it might be helpful.

All good questions Jasper. Good things to think about going into a project like this.

Originally Posted by Jasper Kade

... using these components: 1070, 5160, 01, Cable, Chain.

Without knowing the proportions of each of the above, the end carbon content will be only an estimation. The O-1 can be up to 1.00%, but just calling it Cable or Chain means nothing to the equation. The chain could be wrought iron which will end up lowering the total carbon content. Same for cable.

He says he can harden to between 60 and 65 and that he will differentially temper the blades so that the spine is more durable to knocks and bumps while the edge side of the blade is harder to retain a nice edge.. does this all sound right? I haven't heard of differentially tempered razors before, how should I direct him in this regard?

But, if he can get his mixture hard enough, the razor will function. That was proved by one of Spazola's (Charlie's) blades that shaved well at Rc 50. At the very least, if he makes the steel, he should be the one to heat treat it. That will eliminate a "bunch of if's". Personally, I'd prefer that the whole blade was hardened, OR, differentially hardened and then temper the whole blade. Sometimes the words "hardened or hardening" and "tempered or tempering" are interchanged and while the intent may be clear after a few questions, it's really not very precise and hardening and tempering are really two very different processes with steel.

He also says he will give me some special kind of wax that will seep into the damascus to protect it over time - does this ring a bell with anyone?

Waxes can be as good as oils for keeping oxygen away from steel and preventing rust. Shaving daily with soaps will eventually remove any finish protection and that will require some maintenance replacement. Without knowing what the special wax is, it's tough to comment. There are a lot of methods out there and they all work to some degree. You'll just have to know the limitations of the one you get and work with it.

There is a lot to be said about having a blade that you participated in building. I think you're on the right track. A blade like that will be aesthetically different than a monosteel blade regardless, but nothing to shy away from as a shaver. Get the honing right and how the blade looks should not matter.

Good luck on your quest,
Mike

Originally Posted by Jasper Kade

using these components: 1070, 5160, 01, Cable, Chain. He says he's done a few one-off razors before, but mostly he makes art knives, daggers and folders etc, but says he has no problem doing straight razors. But I just wanted to ask you guys that know about the technical side of razor making, what key processes/methods/standards should I ask that he uses just to be sure he's making razors and not just razor shaped knives - or is it kinda the same thing...???

differentially temper the blades so that the spine is more durable to knocks and bumps while the edge side of the blade is harder to retain a nice edge

And finally just on my design side - how thick should the thickest part of the spine be for a razor this size? - does it matter? and also what angle should the spine be to the cutting edge? (this goes hand in hand with the previous Q I suppose..)

Thanks for any input with this, I just don't want these to be glorified knives shaped like razors - you know what I mean

I'll give my input into the above questions FWIW. I agree with Mike in terms of the unknown content of some of this stuff and how it could be shaky. True- only the maker can speak for his experience with his own damascus, but personally if I were spending thousands on a project like this (don't know if you are) I would at least want a guarantee that it would shave well (which he may or may not be able to give). We don't know the amount of each material he uses either but with 1070, 5160, cable, and chain- the low carbon content in the overall knife kind of scares me.

As for a differentially treated blade I think it is totally unnecessary. IMO a lot of knifemakers get into that kind of thing as a marketing technique. It sells knives when people think you use the absolute best steels and methods or when you can talk metallurgy that they have no comprehension of all day. In this case, the technique has little to no bearing on the end product. Will you use the razor like a samurai sword? Who treats their razor like 'knocks and bumps' are a daily routine anyway, especially with some custom damascus piece?

I'd suggest for an 8/8+ razor to have the spine at a 1/4". This is how a lot of the old ones were. As for angle it's kind of common sense. I've spoken to a lot of custom razor makers and have come to the concensus that most ballpark the spine to edge angle. There are a wide array of angles that will give you a comfortable shave IMO.

What else to ask the maker? I really don't know. I have seen razors that were obviously ade by a knifemaker who knew little about razors. In person it's obvious. Did they shave? Who knows. Aesthetics can be totally personal though and a razor really doesn't neeeed to look like a razor to shave. It's a touchy subject I'd say. I don't think you'd find a lot of knifemakers who would admit to reeeeally not knowing anything about razors before they agreed to make you one. Then again, everyone has to start somewhere and he says he already has.

Thanks Mike, thanks Alex - your knowledge of such matters is greatly appreciated - Mr. Blue's comments are a bit more hopeful I must say, but Alex, your matter-of-fact reply is very welcome too, so thanks again guys, I think he's on the right track then, he does genuinely seem to know what he's talking about, it's not just marketing talk I think. As for the components of his damascus, if you say the carbon content sounds low on those components then that does kinda worry me too - I'll ask him to explain the overall carbon content on the final blades. Ultimately I reckon it should turn out well though. He's got 10 years making his own damascus so I'm sure he'll know how to best treat his steels for the purpose of shaving... interestingly he also colours his damascus.. has anyone heard of damascus being coloured before?

As for the price, the cost of the razors - without scales (I'm making those meself ) is around $400 a blade, and thats with file-worked spines - and made to my exact design. So not too bad, we'll just have to see how they turn out, and of course how they hone up and shave

Oh! just remembered another Q - I read something somewhere about the different steels in the damascus creating a micro serrated edge, how severe is this to shaving? And is this just a reality with damascus blades? Also how can this be overcome if at all?

Thanks again guys.

Here are some images of his damascus knives - these are coloured damascus and you can see some of the patterns are quite masterfully executed... He also does the woodgrain standard style patterning...of course.

i would love to get a hold of some of that dragons skin Damascus to make some stuff out of

Yeah it's pretty wild right, I haven't seen damascus like this before - the dragon skin pattern is catching my eye too.. lets look at more shall we..

Wow, fantastic patterns!



I wanted to chime in on the differential tempering.

I have it in my Russel Baldrdge custom razor as I wanted a hamon, which necessitates differential tempering.

Looks great! But having the spine softer than the edge menas that it will wear MUCH faster, and thus require taping the spine for honing.

Hi there, yeah, but given that we're talking about damascus blades here, taping the spine is part of the package anyways, so nothing lost then really - plus I'd tape the spine of any custom razor to be honest. These patterns he does are so intricate and attractive, it's gonna be hard to pick just one... but I'll manage I'm sure.