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Thread: A Neener Rather than a Gloat

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    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    Default A Neener Rather than a Gloat

    I don't know if those terms are universal, but gloat is when you dig something out of the woodwork for pennies, and neener is less good, meaning you bought at market price. This is a neener.

    I'm a huge fan of Arkansas stones as a reasonable option price wise that can hone with any natural hone. But I wanted some big ones that cover the entire width of a razor and treated myself to two dans 10x3 full thickness stones. Bar none, the best black stones I have ever used vintage or new, and the best trans stones on the market being cut now. You rub a prefinished razor on them and its sharp no matter what method you use when doing the rubbing.

    (wow, that's a bad picture - couldn't see the extent of the top being cut off on the phone. Several more, but posted full size)

    https://s26.postimg.org/dby90fxih/20170914_202907_1.jpg

    https://s26.postimg.org/rwfbv9sh5/20170914_202926_1.jpg

    https://s26.postimg.org/t2nx7t65l/20170914_203105_1.jpg
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    Last edited by DaveW; 09-15-2017 at 12:34 PM.

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    Senior Member BWH1980's Avatar
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    Beautiful stone, I hope you guys treat each other right!


    Enjoy the day,
    Benson
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    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    Quote Originally Posted by BWH1980 View Post
    Beautiful stone, I hope you guys treat each other right!


    Enjoy the day,
    Benson
    Will do - razors only for these stones once they're broken in with the hard bits of a japanese chisel (the reason for the filth on the trans stone).

    The trans stone had some tooth out of the box, but the black stone doesn't have much and should work over razors without any conditioning.

    I've got other stones for tools.

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    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    Funny thing about these two stones together (they are both the full thickness type, which dan's calls a range of 3/4 to 1". The trans is about 3/4, the black is about an inch - makes a big difference in clearance from splinters at the edge of the box).

    ...anyway, funny thing is that the two together are still only about the market price of a little used labeled y/g 5x2 1/2 escher or barber's delight.

    But they will both torch an escher. Easily.

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    Senior Member BWH1980's Avatar
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    Nice! I think arks will be my next stone purchase.


    Enjoy the day,
    Benson
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    Senior Member Steel's Avatar
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    Well, Dave, you got a pair. Beautiful stones. The translucent reminds me of a jewel the way the light shines through the edges and reflects off the surface and the black is a deep solid black. Like seeing a black bear in the woods. Absolutely top shelf stones there. Thanks for sharing.
    What a curse be a dull razor; what a prideful comfort a sharp one

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    Senior Member Longhaultanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BWH1980 View Post
    Nice! I think arks will be my next stone purchase.
    Take a look at Dan's True Hard stones if you want to save a few dollars, unless you just want a Black or Translucent. The True Hard is every bit as good.

    DaveW: very nice stones.
    A little advice: Don't impede an 80,000 lbs. 18 wheeler tanker carrying hazardous chemicals.

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  9. #8
    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    Well, if you go to a retailer, you can get the stones a little cheaper than dans sells them on their website, and that means that the black will be less than the true hard and the trans will be close to it (in the case of my trans, it would probably be the same price - the trans is a second and was off their specials page for $330).

    I think they have a pricing problem with their true hard because there's no organized/established market for them, and there's no established data that they aren't 5 hundredths or a tenth off of the black and trans stones for density (those two of theirs are low/mid 2.6sg). If they dropped off 5 hundredths or a tenth of SG, they'd be like what norton is selling these days, which is a step coarser than dan's stones. It's 100% about density, of course, and not about trans, black or true hard colored stones, per se. I think a 2.65 Sg stone in true hard and uniform pink would just about be the top of the top cat's rectum type stuff. Primo. A "designer" stone, but for razors, you want that mid 2.6s SG because it means no pores. Pores cut like particles, so we just don't even want microscopic ones.

    I'd like to buy the non-special stones directly from them, but they're a bit too proud compared to what retailers go at, so my suggestion to folks if you want one of these stones, I can tell you the retailer where I got it and he can order it form dan's. It'll come with his store info on it, but I'm sure it's being drop shipped from dans because he doesn't stock the big 10x3 types like.

    I'm the kind of guy who would buy a true hard if they were cheaper than the black stones, but it's the other way around right now and Dan's black stones are the finest true black stones that I have ever seen bar none. That includes true black stones from norton and halls, they are not as good, and I have gotten four dan's branded black stones now and they have all been almost identical. Many of norton's black stones are actually trans, but they have cut some true black stones from time to time.

    I've gotten three dan's trans, and the same is true, very consistent.

    Trans stones always sell well when they're full thickness. Black stones do if they're from dan's, so that's why I stuck with those.
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    Senior Member Longhaultanker's Avatar
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    Straining at gnats, Dave. Both Steve Kirschman (in the presence of his father Dan Kirschman) and their website (https://www.danswhetstone.com/inform...one-grades-101) make no distinction between the three classifications (True Hard, Black Hard, and the Translucent). The only distinction in the three is color. The three categories are essentially the same stone but for color. All three are simply rated SG "2.5 or more" according to their chart. This is the very point I explained in other posts. To say further is to say more than the experts at Dan's. What more can a layman do? (rhetorical).
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    A little advice: Don't impede an 80,000 lbs. 18 wheeler tanker carrying hazardous chemicals.

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    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    I have a hard from them that is SG 2.5. It is a decent stone but it is not in the class with a good true hard stone (they know that, which is why they sold it as a hard, and inexpensively).

    A couple of years ago, I bought a few new norton stones. I thought they were marginal, and they had about twice as much bite as Dan's stones, so I measured them. One was a "barely" translucent, but it wasn't barely because it was not a translucent, it was barely due to density. It was high 2.5s. It never would break in to as fine as the dan's stones. The other was a black that had minute pores on it (norton sold some black stock in their 8x3x1/2 stones for a while). Same density, same conclusion.

    The difference between 2.5 and 2.58 SG is a very large jump. The difference between 2.58 and 2.66 is another very large jump. At that, a stone is essentially pore free. You will be able to tell the difference on a razor. With tools it will matter little (I am a woodworker and toolmaker) and you might appreciate the extra bite (I don't). With razors, a stone that is very near completely pore free will allow you to literally rub the razor on it in any direction and with or without a little bit of pressure, and the razor will come out well.

    Maybe dan's hasn't looked at this in the context of razors.

    The other issue is that there really is no market for non-translucent white stones without some interesting coloration. Norton doesn't generally sell them, even though they have them, because the market expects trans stones. Years ago, someone sold a whole bunch of stones of that type on ebay, and they were good stones (but not quite up to the dan's black and trans). I got one of them for $85 and it came with a free 4x2 inch gray translucent stone. The stone I got was more than 2" wide, more than 1" thick and more than 8" long.

    I think they will always have some trouble selling those stones if they aren't less expensive than already market-established stones. I wouldn't pay for a norton stone what I'll pay for dans, because I've seen enough of both to know the dan's stones are finer. I wouldn't pay black ark price for a non-translucent stone unless it was vintage bone colored, and definitely not trans price.

    Just what I've seen. Dan's provides a pretty wide range. If it turns out the non-trans stone average 2.58 and the trans stones average 2.66, people will be able to feel that the trans stones are finer. If it turns out that the trans stones are 2.64-2.66 and the true hards are 2.55-2.66, people will notice that they are not as consistent. I'd pay $300 for one of these black stones a full inch thick. I'd bet that I could probably sell it for just about the same if I was willing to wait for someone who wanted it. Selling a 10x3x1 true hard for that plus a little used would probably require some creative marketing, I just haven't ever seen it happen, and I turn stones over so fast sometimes that it matters.

    I'm going to have to be pretty hungry to have to turn either of these two over, though, unless one turns out to be definitively better than the other.

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