Thread: Fast vs. Smooth

This is more a theoretical question as I try to wrap my mind around what goes on where the metal meets the stone.

Is it possible to establish your desired keenness on a fast but harsh finisher, then smooth the edge out on a coticule or Thuringian or similar finisher?

Also, do these smooth finishers still give such smooth edges if used just wet, no slurry?

Thank you!

I think you've just described honing. That is, you set the shape during the bevel set. You sharpen it to make the apex of the edge properly narrow. Finally you smooth the bevel and the edge.

In general, you will get a smoother finish with just a wet stone without slurry. I cannot think of a hone with which that is not the case.

Also, do these smooth finishers still give such smooth edges if used just wet, no slurry?

you can get the smoothness this way, only variable will be the speed which will depend on the particular stone

Originally Posted by roughkype

Is it possible to establish your desired keenness on a fast but harsh finisher, then smooth the edge out on a coticule or Thuringian or similar finisher?

For sure - for example, if a someone says they don't like the finish off of "High Grit Finisher A", which leaves an edge that is very sharp but feels harsh, that edge can be tamed with either pastes or a few laps on a smoother stone (coti, escher, etc).

Originally Posted by Utopian

I think you've just described honing. That is, you set the shape during the bevel set. You sharpen it to make the apex of the edge properly narrow. Finally you smooth the bevel and the edge.

In general, you will get a smoother finish with just a wet stone without slurry. I cannot think of a hone with which that is not the case.

Actually, if you subscribe to JimR.'s formula, a thick slurry is just the ticket off a Japanese finishing stone. I'm not quite convinced of that yet, though.

Originally Posted by Ryan82

For sure - for example, if a someone says they don't like the finish off of "High Grit Finisher A", which leaves an edge that is very sharp but feels harsh, that edge can be tamed with either pastes or a few laps on a smoother stone (coti, escher, etc).

Thank you Ryan! This was exactly the clarification I was looking for.

Originally Posted by pcb01

Actually, if you subscribe to JimR.'s formula, a thick slurry is just the ticket off a Japanese finishing stone. I'm not quite convinced of that yet, though.

I bought a 6/8 extra-hollow from Pinklather, which he had sharpened on an Asagi, and it's the most amazing edge I've yet shaved with. The same stone, he said, could create frightening flesh-eating keenness (my overblown words, not his) or strictly vegetarian hair-slicing smooth keenness. The latter is what he put on my blade. The rest of my blades are 5/8s, so I made a couple of sloppy landings on the first shave. One of them really should have cost me about 1/8" of lip, but that slurry-tuned edge just didn't have that kind of hunger. It took more hair WTG than I usually get in two passes. A real joy.

I'd love to hear more of Pinklather's thoughts about honing with this stone. I'll never shell out for one (no, really, I probably won't), but would love to learn the lessons it has to teach.

You are really over simplifying here on this,,, just so long as you understand that, then yes what you are saying is true... There is so much more to it as you start digging deeper and deeper into honing...

An example is your story about the Asagi, this same stone might put just an OK edge on say a Sheffield wedge, where a Charnley Forest or a Coticule could make hair melt off the face on that razor... These things are found as you hone more and more...

Three things have to come together to make an exceptional edge
1. The Razor
2. the right stone for that razor
3 the skill in the hands

Many stones, on many razors, in many hands, make great edges but those exceptional edges are few and far between, and there is only a minute difference between Great and Exceptional...

I hope that makes a bit of sense...

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Three things have to come together to make an exceptional edge
1. The Razor
2. the right stone for that razor
3 the skill in the hands

Many stones, on many razors, in many hands, make great edges but those exceptional edges are few and far between, and there is only a minute difference between Great and Exceptional...

I hope that makes a bit of sense...

Yes, it does. And it's why I've decided to keep a honing diary. I've read mentions of them here and there, and thought "Wow, that's overkill." But as the RAD and HAD duke it out (one's the lub, one's the dub, and on an on they go) I have more variations to try and to track.

It's good to learn that what I thought was a specific question is still pretty broad.

The keen and smooth holy grail. There's a preference portion here also. I have a preference for smooth - partially 'cause I don't want to bleed if there's some transgression in technique. What started the obsession with smooth was getting that magnificent Williams blade from Riooso - who finished it on an asagi - also from So Yamashita. It doesn't feel very keen, doesn't respond to normal tests that well. 'Won't lop a fine head hair (.0018" thick). Yet that bad boy leaves a cleaner cut than any blade - until I got the asagi.

As a Honer, I'm a beginner - about 55 blades. On the Asagi - I'm not safe outside without my mother . Months of reading from many diff. sources did almost nothing to clarify how to really master a jnat. F.M. Voodoo. I will say that even my awkward first blades on it were better than most of my edges from the C12k. I've yet to find a method of manipulating slurry that surpasses the finish from just water. I've not read others whose asagis behave like this. Most said just water left a harsh finish. My stone is SLOW. It does seem that for a soligen or US steel of any grind - it gives very pleasing edges.

As you can see from the above, Glen is very right - there's alot to it. My experience with heavy Sheffields tracks exactly as he said - they don't like the asagi. The guy I listened to most about the jnat said his stone didn't like the heavy sheffields either - so he used a Coti, which I don't have. There's no funds for a coti at the moment, but I'd love to try one - and an Escher/Thurry. It may be premature, but I posted 2 sheffields on the classifieds 'cause I don't like the edges they get, and don't like the feel of the blade on the face. 3 sheffields all felt the same. Sharp, but I don't like them.

My curiosity is over what techniques on a given stone - makes for smooth. Sham said in one post that on the coti & the Escher, he uses slurry until it's dry - no dilution. His edges are somewhat legendary. There's an antique show coming up later this month, so my SAD (skills acquisition disorder) will have some fresh fodder for the stones.