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Thread: Tonights honing session & the HHT

  1. #11
    illegitimum non carborundum Utopian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SailorJ View Post
    It has me wondering if the difference is made at the bevel setting stage or finishing. I always get good edges off of my nani 12k, but it has me questioning if I would get better results off of a different finishing stone.
    The greatest likelihood is the bevel stage. If you are using the thumbnail test to assess the bevel it is rather difficult to distinguish between a nearly and fully set bevel.

    The difference between the shaving quality off of a Naniwa Superstone 12k and a more expensive natural stone is going to be relatively subtle. If you get pulling and cannot get a good shave off of the 12k, then spending more money won't fix this.

    Spending more time on the 1k probably will.

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    Nautical Madman SailorJ's Avatar
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    I see, I will do so. I wonder though, does over honing usually happen at the 1k level, or can it occur at any stage?
    "One must always choose the lesser of two weevils." - Cpt. Jack Aubrey

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    illegitimum non carborundum Utopian's Avatar
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    It depends on your definition:
    1. Creation of a burr. I've never been able to see this on a razor but I believe it is claimed to occur on lower grits.
    2. Removing too much steel. This is the most literal definition but the least of consideration. Of course a 1k will remove more steel than a finisher but that is its job.
    3. Honing too long with the consequence of creating a fragile edge that crumbles. This is the most common definition in relation to razors and as far as I know is only an issue in the higher grits--I've never noticed it below 8k

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    Nautical Madman SailorJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian View Post
    It depends on your definition:
    1. Creation of a burr. I've never been able to see this on a razor but I believe it is claimed to occur on lower grits.
    2. Removing too much steel. This is the most literal definition but the least of consideration. Of course a 1k will remove more steel than a finisher but that is its job.
    3. Honing too long with the consequence of creating a fragile edge that crumbles. This is the most common definition in relation to razors and as far as I know is only an issue in the higher grits--I've never noticed it below 8k

    Thank you That is what I was getting at. From the searching I did I couldn't pin that bit down. It does seemed to me that especially at the 1k level no matter how much you hone the edge should continue to be all right until you move up into the higher grits. Although I'm sure you could eventually mess up the angle by wearing to far into the spine.

    And yes if my problem is at the bevel setting stage I am not sure how I will be able to tell yet. I just honed one of my razors on the 1k to the point that dragging it across my nail made it feel like it would cut through. Then after bringing it up through to the 12k it shaved like crum.

    I have edges that shave very well that I have used previous honing techniques with, all of them different as I am still experimenting, and not very well documented. I have tried pyramids, trying to judge by feedback on the hone, sharpie tests, and more. But still nothing I have honed comes close to a custom razor that I recently received. The edge off of this razor shaves so well that when I am finished with one wtg pass it feels buttery smooth during and after the shave.

    So I know I have a long way to go, just not sure how to get there just yet.

    If only I were closer to the hone meisters
    "One must always choose the lesser of two weevils." - Cpt. Jack Aubrey

  7. #15
    illegitimum non carborundum Utopian's Avatar
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    Are you familiar with the marker test? Either a Sharpie or magnification, or both, would help you determine if the bevel is fully set.
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    Nautical Madman SailorJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utopian View Post
    Are you familiar with the marker test? Either a Sharpie or magnification, or both, would help you determine if the bevel is fully set.
    So I took your advice and paid closer attention to the marker test… and it drove me up a wall and back. I took about six of my razors and brought them back to attempt setting bevels. I marked all of the edges and put them on my freshly lapped 1k, after quite a bit of honing (spent hours trying to remove a chip) and still none of the bevels would pass the marker test.

    I set it down for a day then came back to a wade and butcher that I had given up on, after a previous attempt to hone it up the edge off the 12k looked like wood saw and felt worse. Figuring I would just practice on it and not worry about over honing the rest. What was amazing was that it actually came in line with the marker test. At this point I guess I have removed enough material to get down to the good stuff. I continued using the marker test through the 8k level. This time the razor never passed the HHt until the 12k. After stropping the bevel is perhaps not perfect, but it plinged hairs all the way up and down and shaved arm hair nicely.

    I got excited and couldn't wait for the morning, so I lathered up to take it out for a shave test. And gentleman not only did I get the best bbs shave I have had yet and it felt like a hot knife through butter. After two WTG passes I couldn't be happier to finally see the hours of honing yield the results I was looking for. Another pleasant surprise that came from different technique as well as the edge was getting the first truly bbs shave on my chin which has always been my trouble area.

    To anyone who is frustrated as I was truly do yourself a favor and get a benchmark razor honed by one of the masters and stay on that bevel setting process until it readily passes the marker test.

    Thank you all for your input, Hone on friends!

    Cheers,
    Julian
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    "One must always choose the lesser of two weevils." - Cpt. Jack Aubrey

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    Senior Member CanonSterVa's Avatar
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    Great write up.
    I still have to refine my edge and work with basics very often.
    Myron
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  10. #18
    Huh... Oh here pfries's Avatar
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    Thanks for a great thread Julian and Ron,
    I still have some blades honed from when I was starting into honing, mind you blades I shaved with.
    Some were good shaves, some great, and some bad. All of this recorded and edges protected for storage.
    I occasionally break one out (like this morning) and inspect it now along with my notes and wonder what the He** I was thinking when I put that to my face.
    It keeps me humble, and makes sure I do not loose perspective, this is a journey and I am still traveling.

    Julian,
    taking a moment to record observations and results will pay you back 10 fold if you plan on taking steel to stone with any frequency.

    Thank you again gentlemen

    Pat
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    Consider a cheap magnified loupe, also. Along with the sharpie test, this has really helped me to create decent bevels and has easily paid back the $5 or so that I paid for it.
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  12. #20
    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    Setting the bevel, is the foundation of the edge you are building.

    Too often we rush through the process or do not spend enough time finishing the bevel set.

    Initially setting the bevel, is removing metal to flatten the bevels and get them to meet in a sharp edge. Aggressively removing metal can leave deep stria resulting in a jagged edge.

    Set the bevel and use whatever tests you feel comfortable with, then joint the edge (lightly drag the edge on the corner of the stone, weight of blade). The bevels are already flat so getting the bevels to meet again will not take much effort.

    Ink the bevels and with a flooded stone, re-hone on the bevel setter, with just the weight of the blade until the bevels meet again. Look down on the edge with magnification and strong light, any shinny spots are where the bevels are not meeting. is a video demonstrating this.

    Do not use the TNT past this point, it is destructive to the edge. Once the edge comes together, ink the bevels again and do 10 more laps or until all the ink is removed. Check the edge again and if still ok proceed to the next stone. The goal is to reduce the land height with the bevel setting stone while not touching the groove or creating new deep stria.

    Ink the bevels at each progression and hone without pressure until the ink is removed, then move up to the next stone.

    One of three things is happening, the edge is not fully set on your bevel setter, you are damaging the edge with your TNT or your edge is crumbling from aggressive setting or the steel at the edge is weak.

    Jointing the edge and re-setting is a quick and easy way to build a strong straight edge by removing just the edge. Ink is a no-brainer, fool proof way to know when to move up.

    Bevel setting is the foundation of building an edge. If building’s foundation is weak, crooked or not perfectly level anything you build on it will be problematic. It will not be the painter’s fault when the paint cracks.

    Always attempt, a perfect bevel set, “good enough”, never is.
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