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Thread: Hone of the Day

  1. #281
    " Atta Boy!!" sharptonn's Avatar
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    Lord have mercy! Johnathan has drank from the cool-aid trough!

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    Senior Member jnats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultrasoundguy2003 View Post
    Jnats gave me an online class. Here are the pics.

    Attachment 222125Attachment 222126Attachment 222127Attachment 222128

    I wasnt sure how to start. I had been shaving factory edge for a year. Bevel set Chosera 1K, 5K
    and then went to Nakayama Mizu Asagi Tomae. and then just boton slurry to dilution and got to scary sharp. Different than any other hones I have used.
    Next day I killed another edge and tried it from boton,Tenjyou hard to get a slurry from that one, and lastly used mejiro.
    Yes I had to refer to his notes to get all the terms correct. But I am learning.

    Attachment 222129Attachment 222130Attachment 222131Attachment 222132Attachment 222133

    So with this set up, bevel set to finish I didnt see striations. Is this normal for jnats?
    It is sharper and I have been able to get with my Zulu or PHIG, keener may be a better term.
    Jnats sent me hone crack with this set up and now I cant stop the madness.
    Yes, this normal for my razor quality Japanese Whetstones. Wow those are beautiful bevels man and great photos!! The top bevel looks especially nice and fuzzy. I can tell from your bevel photos that there is a skilled hand putting steel to the stone, and I'm ecstatic to see you getting on so well. Even the best Japanese Whetstones are still only rocks without a skilled hand. Hone On!

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  4. #283
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    Way to go Jnats! And congrats to ultrasoundguy2003, you've started a long, fun, and interesting journey.

    Cheers, Steve

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    Previously lost, now "Pasturized" kaptain_zero's Avatar
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    Pardon me for butting my uneducated head into this conversation. I am absolutely clueless about Jnats and so please take my questions from that point.

    Nagura.... I have seen references to multiple types of Nagura stones, apparently applied to the same hone but achieving different results.


    Hones, I see reference to a multitude of different stones, soft, medium and hard, and yet, apparently there is a need for Nagura stones of differing quality to make the hone work?


    Reading through all the stuff I've seen... it almost seems like it's the Nagura that does all the work and that the hone itself is secondary to the Nagura stone?


    I'm thinking, why buy an expensive hone from Japan, when I could use a hard local stone and just add the various Nagura grades to it?


    Guys, I'm clueless about Jnats of any kind.... I'm groping in the dark, trying to make sense out of what I'm reading.



    Regards

    Christian
    "Aw nuts, now I can't remember what I forgot!" --- Kaptain "Champion of lost causes" Zero

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    FAL
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    I'm thinking, why buy an expensive hone from Japan, when I could use a hard local stone and just add the various Nagura grades to it?

    I have wondered the same thing Kaptain and have been experimenting along those lines.

    Maybe a thread called: " Slurry Secrets of the Hone Masters" ?? There really are some Masters on this site, so come on Gent's, if you know a finding you can share with us, I know it will be appreciated. It's those little things that add up to superior honing.
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  7. #286
    Senior Member blabbermouth RezDog's Avatar
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    Basically the jnat hone is in fact a hone. Most of them very very fine hones, at least the good ones are. The slurry from the progression of naguras can have the effect of honing on lower grit hones. Essentially they provide the grit equivalents to a bevel setter and mid and pre polish to the hone. Beyond the basic over view I know very little.
    It's not what you know, it's who you take fishing!

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    Senior Member ultrasoundguy2003's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=kaptain_zero;1579799]Pardon me for butting my uneducated head into this conversation. I am absolutely clueless about Jnats and so please take my questions from that point.

    Nagura.... I have seen references to multiple types of Nagura stones, apparently applied to the same hone but achieving different results.


    Hones, I see reference to a multitude of different stones, soft, medium and hard, and yet, apparently there is a need for Nagura stones of differing quality to make the hone work?


    Reading through all the stuff I've seen... it almost seems like it's the Nagura that does all the work and that the hone itself is secondary to the Nagura stone?


    I'm thinking, why buy an expensive hone from Japan, when I could use a hard local stone and just add the various Nagura grades to it?


    Guys, I'm clueless about Jnats of any kind.... I'm groping in the dark, trying to make sense out of what I'm reading.


    I was/ am in the same boat. When jnats offered to loan me one of his.
    I couldnt say no to that.
    Then he sent a detailed order of operation and corresponding pictures.
    So I followed directions and BAM POW BOOM.
    The edges felt way better than my normal.
    So I tried to explain in my limited jnat vocabulary what just happened.
    The pictures were to document what I was feeling.
    Now I am honing every razor in my collection with them before I have to return his hones.
    I tried to understand it on my own, and yes its different/complicated/I dont trust all the hype and sellers.
    But when walked through this type of honing its the keenest edges I have been able to achieve without doing 200 laps.
    sharptonn and FAL like this.
    Common sense, Aint so common anymore.

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  10. #288
    Senior Member jnats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaptain_zero View Post
    Nagura.... I have seen references to multiple types of Nagura stones, apparently applied to the same hone but achieving different results. Hones, I see reference to a multitude of different stones, soft, medium and hard and yet, apparently there is a need for Nagura stones of differing quality to make the hone work?


    Reading through all the stuff I've seen... it almost seems like it's the Nagura that does all the work and that the hone itself is secondary to the Nagura stone?


    I'm thinking, why buy an expensive hone from Japan, when I could use a hard local stone and just add the various Nagura grades to it?
    Quote Originally Posted by FAL View Post
    I'm thinking, why buy an expensive hone from Japan, when I could use a hard local stone and just add the various Nagura grades to it?

    I have wondered the same thing Kaptain and have been experimenting along those lines.

    Maybe a thread called: " Slurry Secrets of the Hone Masters" ?? There really are some Masters on this site, so come on Gent's, if you know a finding you can share with us, I know it will be appreciated. It's those little things that add up to superior honing.

    Christian: No. and Sure. There is not a need for nagura to make quality stones work. I do most of my razors without asano Nagura- I use very very nice Kiita and set the bevel and finish on the same stone with only slurry from the stone. Sometimes I'll use 3 or more hones. Sometimes I'll use Nagura, but mostly I use hones. Nagura aren't for finishing. Think of it like a Suehiro 20k- you can one stone hone on that. Now lets say you buy a small piece of a broken chosera 5k and piece of 6k Shapton glass and a 10k shapton glass and a 12k piece. You rub these pieces on the 20k at various stages and hone on the slurry. Clean the stone between slurries and then finish on the 20k and water. None of those pieces make the base stone redundant IMO. And yet, they make the base stone more useful on low end work, and give a smoother linear progression.

    It's even better with nagura (than synthetic hone pieces of different grits slurried on to a highest grit base stone) as the particles break down, and you dilute the slurries as you go- so it's not 3 or 4 synthetic grits, but It's really all points in between and in a very nice gradient. You nurse the edge there. Were the other magic happens is in the lack of striations as Johnathan demonstrated with his fantastic bevel pics. Try that on a Suehiro 20k- with synthetics you get edge damage and need to watch out for over honing. The awaseto I select for razors don't suffer that problem. I have nagura hones as well. Some cost thousands, like an asano stamped 3 kilo Koma Nagura I have. These are more for swords than the occasional razor, and are nice to have rather than my first preference.

    You are correct that a lot of stones I see out there being sold for razors are trash, and the vendors might get away with that by having people buy Asano Nagura and honing on the nagura slurry they make on these lifeless bricks. Most jnat users never hone on their base stone- it's a missing gap of information/misinformation and work needs to be done to educate the communities that use Jnats that the base stone is for honing not just a strop to be pasted. Diamond Nagura is a great way to enjoy a stone and hone with the base slurry. I test stones this way, and then I have the luxury to find a tomo for the finder ones (as scratches do slightly diminish the fine polish of a stone until the surface of the stone polishes back up- I have test tubes and stoppers labeled with saved lapping slurry of my favorite stones- I use a pinch of dust and water and make my slurry this way commonly- using the sparse lapping/dressing schedules as opportunity to replenish the labeled store of slurry) The softer stones that are very fine are real treasures. These are my focus, as after having used many many stones- these are the ones that really charm me and are so incomparable. All this 5+ and 5++ 5+++ jazz hyped over super hard stones being necessary for razors is just that- hype. To sell the super hard and plentiful stones, rather than the rarer old stock of fine and medium soft/medium hard. I don't seek out super hard stones, and they are mostly more for just a few passes of an already perfect shaving edge. They are more strops than hones. So while a super hard stone does not do much without a slurry- a diamond slurry of the stone itself should have many appreciable qualities. If they do not, or a seller insists that you NEED asano nagura to make them usable, then watch out. The stone itself should have good cutting silica composition, and the stone's slurry itself- however it is coaxed out- should do some magic. Another collector who does NOT sell lifeless bricks is Alex Gilmore, he has fantastic, quality stones and some great videos on you tube of honing on just 1 or two base stones to shave quality finish. This is what quality Japanese Whetstones can AND SHOULD do. If your Japanese Whetstone or a vendor's doesn't do this, or REQUIRES asano nagura to work, then it's not a great stone. Extremely hard and dead plain colored tomae and namito stones are most plentiful in comparison to quality jnats- because most all of japan has long considered/known them to be "defective" The stocks are most comprised of these because they don't sell- with exception to the recent razor craze/ misinformation that "the super hard ones are the best". Alex and I and plenty of other well versed Japanese Whetstone honers do not care for super hard stones, and you'll see in our collections: they're the minority not the norm. They have a place, but that place is not as magical, and very few of them are special enough to warrant suitcase real estate and courier fees to bring them home. (There's always next time) I use a 5+ /5++ stone often enough, but it could be 10mm thick as they wear so slow, and it sees so few of the passes my blades make over stone. I could replace it, or get another. It's the iromono, and Kiita that I drool over and hoard with lust. The special asagi and aoto and suita that are rare birds to be preserved and most useful. Even Lynn expressed something similar with synthetics if I'm not mistaken- favoring the softer Naniwa SS for razors- as super hard is not needed, and softer is better for razors. When particle shearing and release rates are proportional to Amonton's laws of friction- the blade contact area, bevel size and force applied while honing: then razors need a softer stone to behave appreciably similar to how it would with a heavier blade or honing. The only hard stones I like are super pure and consistent and very fast, time is a premium for me (though you wouldn't know from my post lengths) I like 5+ that with diamond slurry can sharpen if not set the bevel- a stone that can only polish is not something I felt like I needed hundreds of pounds of.

    There are 10 second honda civics and kia rios (I've seen at least one of the latter) they use things like forced induction and HP Fuel Pumps and other bolt on performance mods like over sized injectors to help, as well as combustion tuning like NOS.

    Then there are power plants like the Ferrari 454V8 NA
    Or the NA M3 V8s vs the Turbocharged M3 V6 powerplant model years: I would think of your Japanese Whestones in terms of hone handling and speed and also powerband-- torque range/torque curve. There are stones that can rip off steel like 4 speed american muscles can rip rubber off tires when then clutch is popped out or the throttle goosed. But they don't finish in the high end torque/ speeds of an Audi R8. Then there are balanced cars like e86 m3's that do 155 fine, but aren't smoking blocks of road from a dead stop to throttle wailing like an old GTO would. A lot of turbos are a trade off- there is turbo lag off the bottom and they finish their rpm range per gear better than they start. NA cars typically don't suffer the low end resistance, but they get oxygen starved at high rpm more readily than a turbo.

    So with quality nagura- you can build a 10 second rio- but it's not the ride quality or capabilities of an M3 or a Ferrari, and it's not going to finish top end near 200mph nor handle at speed like those cars. But in the 0-60, or 4-10k abstract equivalence> it can be *crudely* comparable. I for one really appreciate the more time than money and sense mentality that does crazy things like make 10 second kia rios and geo storms, it's a fascinating and hilariously entertaining novelty. But if I was putting in the time and money and had to drive the end result- I'd pick a 335i for my money, that's how I feel about stones.

    Back to stones: My favorite kiitas would be slower and less linear if I used nagura, aside from Tenjyou and Koma that I sometimes use as a tomo/ [tenjyou/koma nagura] as they're hard so with a softer fine kiita I get a very nice mixture of base stone and nagura. The best stones don't require nagura, just like the best power plants don't rely on forced induction to make power- VG30DE VG30DET VG30DETT 3 fairlady 300zx engines with DOHC, one NA version, One turbo, and one Twin Turbo. The same engine worked to make the car functional- take away the turbo(s): you still have a working engine. Nagura should increase the range of a hone or widen the powerband, but they should not be the "only" quality component of the engine like turbocharged kias. Put a turbo on a NA ferrari or a Nagura progression on the perfect kiita- you're just as likely to mess with the torque curve and slow the system as you are to save some time.


    Now to FAL: I love this Idea, and I'd love to hear about your research! I think it is increasingly important as the best stones haven't been mined since the 20's and the dregs of the barrel of old stock that aren't being sold as $30k+ Hatahoshi, rather being stamped and boxed- are not sustainable for future generations. I'd love to scuba dive around hawaii and rub a diving knife on some rocks looking for any remnants of the Honkuchi Naori - but I don't see that happening. I'd talk to member Modine, haven't myself yet but I lurk and he is very well versed in hones and different naturals, and there aought to be some like the silkvein hone that are affordable and fine (I know he silkvein he said was slow, and not fine as a finisher- and I don't know the value- but it stands to reason that like zulu greys there are other natural stones out ther) As Johnathan said- there aren't striations like you find with zulu- I'll add: Johnathan can run a #1200 Diamond Nagura (Well worn Diamond plate) over the stone and bevel set to finish on the slurry alone. I included nagura for Johnathan to experiment with, because your question is common and people see nagura as synonymous to jnats and want to see what the experience is like- and nagura progressions are very satisfying and meditative! They are not required to use the stone. They do add a more valuable wider range- but that is tacked on the low end of the stone. Not the finishing capabilities.

    Nagura are meant to be an afforable and dependable way in a world were variance and premium rarity prices are the norm- to give you tomo options in a range of lower end particle sizes to extend the range of your stone. The other option is to find aoto tomo, a fast kiita tomo, uchigomori tomo, a fine kiita tomo, and use those on the base stone, and then find a base stone tomo, and finish on the base stone tomo slurry and dilute to water. I can do that, and I get great resuts, I tell you my setup and you go to procure a reproducible setup. Good luck, sadly. With asano nagura- this is much more feasible as Mikawa is very consistent between layers, and the rubric of Dr. Asano and Iwasaki-San is very well crafted and thoughtfully planed, and Sakamoto-San does a phenomenal job of honoring that rubric in his apprenticed sole position in stamping the last remaining stock today. In Short- the easiest way would be to find the finest possible cheap dead stone you can, and with asano nagura- make a usable (not painfully slow) system for under 100 bucks that could make edges comparable a J-nat-- or any price point, if it can meet and surpass the edge of Japanese Whetstones. It would be very useful and ingenious to devise a system, and I would be very happy to see some useful workarounds that make average quality super hard jnats superfluous- it is cruel irony that I can get average type 30 super hard 5+ and 5++ dead stones for less than a phenomenal 8mm thick lv 4 or 4+ kiita hone, and that the super hard ones are ubiquitous by comparison. as the type 30 super hard would be only slightly smaller in my lifetime and the kiita if not rationed judiciously on blade by blade basis of kiita worthiness could be gone in less than a year. "Kiita for president. 2016"
    Last edited by jnats; 12-23-2015 at 03:38 PM.
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  12. #289
    " Atta Boy!!" sharptonn's Avatar
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    WOW! ..............

  13. #290
    Senior Member jnats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RezDog View Post
    Essentially they provide the grit equivalents to a bevel setter and mid and pre polish to the hone. Beyond the basic over view I know very little.
    Maybe it's best that you know "very little" as your post is much more concise and useful to the point than mine!!

    [QUOTE=ultrasoundguy2003;1579866]
    Quote Originally Posted by kaptain_zero View Post

    I was/ am in the same boat. When jnats offered to loan me one of his.
    I couldnt say no to that.
    Then he sent a detailed order of operation and corresponding pictures.
    So I followed directions and BAM POW BOOM.
    The edges felt way better than my normal.
    So I tried to explain in my limited jnat vocabulary what just happened.
    The pictures were to document what I was feeling.
    Now I am honing every razor in my collection with them before I have to return his hones.
    I tried to understand it on my own, and yes its different/complicated/I dont trust all the hype and sellers.
    But when walked through this type of honing its the keenest edges I have been able to achieve without doing 200 laps.
    No rush Johnathan. Those pictures are amazing and do a great service to the community and learning for all, myself included. The more scientific data we record on hones, such as magnified bevel pics in addition to subjective shave and honing experience- the more we are able to understand the je ne sais quoi of these hones, as they are all different and in some ways to varying degrees similar.

    If your learning and documenting your findings- while getting quality edges like that- take your time! You can send it back in February. I have thousands of pounds in toishi and I don't have the time, steel or whiskers to use them all and take micro bevel photos of all of them. I'm happy to see my peers using quality stone. (in fact: I may send you more to play with if your interested now that we know how much you prefer honing on them and I know that you can do bevel photos and shave test findings if you're interested)- it can be exhausting shave testing every stone and honing multiple razors on each one just to write an accurate stone specific review and recommendation deeper than "it works"- especially when you have to pass on using your favorites it starts to take away fun from your collection. it's more fun when it's at your leisure instead of requirement and I'm really enjoying spending time on this vacation with the family and a Kiita I've missed (I brought both ) ...I may never go back to work I'll put a kamisori to the kiita I brought later today and rerail this thread if someone hasn't already by then. I promise

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