Damascus edge

brothers

Member
Do we know whether a damascus razor holds an edge and if so are they difficult to sharpen and do they perform well over the long term? Any related information regarding twisted damascus open razor blades will be helpful. Also, is damascus an advantage regarding everyday workhorse straight razors, or is it merely a gimmick?
Gary
 

drmoss_ca

Is there a Doctor in the house ?
Once again, I saw your post at SMF and answered there. But since the question is of interest to all, here is what I wrote:

Oh boy. Yes, they hold an edge. Longer than another steel, maybe - depends on hardness. Harder to sharpen, maybe - depends on hardness.

Damascus steel as we understand it today, which means pattern-welded Damascus, not Wootz, can be beautiful. Honestly, after the looks, any other properties depend on Rockwell hardness. Essentially, the harder the steel, the longer it keeps an edge. Practically, the harder a steel, the more difficult it is to get to that edge. I love my Damascus blades, but I don't see myself buying more. They are pretty, and I can hone them to what is as close to perfect as makes no difference to me. But as you know, the last custom razor I ordered was made from O1 tool steel, which I regard as the best of all compromises. Pretty much any steel, including pattern-welded damascus can be hardened and then tempered down to a desired HRC number (yes, the Damascus will be a sort of composite of the two steels). I realised I loved old Sheffield razors, as they were soft enough to take an exquisite edge very easily, and they don't keep it for very long, but that's good too, as I like honing!

If I were considering buying a custom damascus today, I'd want to be convinced to buy it by its looks, but would need to know I could hone it before spending the money. If it always disappointed me in the shave, no matter how gorgeous it was, it would be a failure. I've bought too many razors, and of all of those, far too many were damascus razors if the shave is the only criterion that matters. Once you let aesthetics in the door, anything goes. Many of my razors have taken me a long time to figure out how best to hone, and I'm relieved to say I can hone all but the Deformed Letter-Opener Of Gabor. Were they all O1 steel tempered down to HRC 61-63, I'd have an easier life, but they wouldn't look so good in the display cases.

I suspect from your recent question in the SOTD, and with this question, you are considering investing in a Damascus blade. If you want to know in advance how a custom blade from a particular maker will hone up, you can only go by the experience of other buyers, assuming the techniques used haven't changed. Nine Zowadas in, I know you can't go wrong there, but I guess there is a long wait now. The old time Livi Damasteel razors were sui generis, but are lovable even if not capable of the Zowada edge. I'm sure there are many forgers out there who can make a great blade, but you'll be finding out for yourself. There is NO magic in Damascus. None. Nothing. They can look good, and can be as good as any other razor. But no magic.
 

drmoss_ca

Is there a Doctor in the house ?
Indeed.

But while we deal with unfortunate razors, it turns out Gary is looking at the down-market end of things, with a very suspicious eye.
The razor concerned is here (authentic, mods!) and costs all of $37USD/$51CAN. It claims to be stainless steel, and all of the reviews (well, nearly all) are written by people with female names claiming they bought it for their boyfriend who "absolutely loves it". The seller is unable to answer questions like 'what is the blade width?', so while he may or may not be in Arizona, the razors are probably in China. Looking at the patterns on the blade as in this pic:

il_794xN.2473121331_3ttw.jpg

It's hard for me to see how that mess of lines just forward of the heel could be created by folding and pattern welding. I'm wondering if it is actually just etched to look a bit like damascus? For that price we can find out, I said to myself, and then discovered they don't ship to Canada. I've asked Gary if he'd be willing to place an order and send it on. Between a microscope and a saw we shall find the truth.
 

global_dev

New member
I purchased a titan (iirc) a few years ago that was alleged to be PWS. Pretty sure it was laser etched to create the pattern based on closeup pics. I dont see them for sale anymore.
 

drmoss_ca

Is there a Doctor in the house ?
The razor is on its way to me (thank you, Gary!), so we can see what is going on with this absolute bargain.
 

Tboomer

New member
blade2.jpg
blade.jpg
I think the determinant factor in deciding if it's a real "Damascus" is if the pattern matches. Here are two of my knives (both Kramers, so I know they are real) The top one is obvious -- it flows towards the heel seamlessly. In the second picture, that knife has your "mess of lines" however if one looks closely, one can see that it is a continuation of the extant lines.
Looking at your photo of the razor, it appears to be the same.
Hope that helps.
 

drmoss_ca

Is there a Doctor in the house ?
Right now I don't see how it's damascus for 37 bucks. We'll see in due course. I don't need to follow the lines, I'll look and see if the steel is in layers. For example, here is the first damascus blade that TI sold to the public in 2004, a photo of the spine at 60x clearly shows the layers of metal:

Damascus spine 60x.jpg

If I don't see it I'll know it isn't damascus. Before I do anything destructive, I'll try to hone it and maybe it will save its own life by shaving decently. If not, I'll get out the angle grinder and have a look at the insides. Old habits die hard; we can call it an exploratory laparotomy if you like.
 

Tboomer

New member
"Exploratory laparotomy"? Now that's funny! Though one hopes that you've gotten lucky, rendering the more invasive procedures unnecessary ("Do no harm" etc., etc, after all).
I look forward to your future posts -- being an absolute neophyte to this world of vintage and collectable razors, I learn so much from all of you each time you post.
 

drmoss_ca

Is there a Doctor in the house ?
The KCBA razor came today, and it is superficially pretty. I spent a little time with a loupe and a microscope and I am impressed with the quality of the laser etching - for that is what it is. Very fine lines showing good continuity round the corners. The rivet was loose and the razor hits the wood scales. It's not stainless - it came with some rust spots on the underside of the tang and it is strongly attracted to a magnet: carbon steel. It was not sharp on arrival, so I honed it the usual way, and hasn't taken a good enough edge after the Chosera 1k, coticule and Arkansas. I note there is quite a flat on each side of the spine after a single brief honing, one that is broad near the shank and non-existent at the point on one side of the blade, and broad in the middle of the spine on the other side, telling me there is a warp to the blade. Looking at the freshly exposed metal on that flat under the microscope, I see no lamina at all. This is not what I understand by damascus, and is probably made from steel that last saw duty on a tramp steamer broken up in Bangladesh. I don't think I'll try to shave with it. You get what you pay for, and I was not expecting $37USD to buy a real damascus straight!
 

Tboomer

New member
The KCBA razor came today, and it is superficially pretty. I spent a little time with a loupe and a microscope and I am impressed with the quality of the laser etching - for that is what it is. Very fine lines showing good continuity round the corners. The rivet was loose and the razor hits the wood scales. It's not stainless - it came with some rust spots on the underside of the tang and it is strongly attracted to a magnet: carbon steel. It was not sharp on arrival, so I honed it the usual way, and hasn't taken a good enough edge after the Chosera 1k, coticule and Arkansas. I note there is quite a flat on each side of the spine after a single brief honing, one that is broad near the shank and non-existent at the point on one side of the blade, and broad in the middle of the spine on the other side, telling me there is a warp to the blade. Looking at the freshly exposed metal on that flat under the microscope, I see no lamina at all. This is not what I understand by damascus, and is probably made from steel that last saw duty on a tramp steamer broken up in Bangladesh. I don't think I'll try to shave with it. You get what you pay for, and I was not expecting $37USD to buy a real damascus straight!
Too bad. One had hoped you'd stumbled upon a lucky find.

Ah, well, c'est la vie, monsieur le docteur -- c'est la guerre!
 

brothers

Member
There is another way to detect fake damascus. Polish off the pattern then etch it by dipping briefly in muriatic acid or ferric acid (chloride). If it is damascus the pattern will return.
 
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Marshal

New member
There is another way to detect fake damascus. Polish off the pattern then etch it by dipping briefly in muriatic acid or ferric acid (chloride). If it is damascus the pattern will return.
Yep. Just looking at the edge in the first photo I had serious doubts it was Damascus. I've made a few patterns in my friend's forge, and you'll see folds right to the cutting edge on most of our blades if you look close enough. It's usually apparent even without re-etching them.
 
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